The BEST Way to Work with Family Liaison Officers During Emergencies

00:00:04:00 - 00:00:20:20
Tim Conrad
It was very late in the year with crisp, clear air and ice on the rocks when the final body was recovered. I was there helping to package and then transport the body to the extraction point. I can still feel the muted jubilation of being part of a closing of a mission, and most importantly, sending the deceased remains back to their family.

00:00:20:21 - 00:00:43:08
Tim Conrad
Colleagues congratulated each other on the trail as we all realized this chapter had been closed on this protracted incident. Having been the Family Liaison officer and field operator gave me a unique perspective. It underlined the need to keep the two worlds insulated from each other, and the hidden emotional load that months of searching had had on me. The mission had crept under my skin and quietly become almost obsessive.

00:00:43:11 - 00:01:01:05
Tim Conrad
Having the skills to work in technical terrain had opened the window to side hikes and searches. Every time I walk the trail, I replayed the conditions on that fateful day. I noted how the area changed as the summer shadows deepened on previous searches, smell as much as sight had played a part in discovery, and I took time to explore with all of my senses.

00:01:01:06 - 00:01:23:07
Tim Conrad
When, through back channels, the family invited me to the funeral, I unhesitatingly said no. I knew that I had been far too deeply involved and needed to firmly step away. The incident has never left me. Years later, at a training I attended, the accident was part of a discussion. There was an analysis in quotes from the family and the distributed materials, and upon reading the text, I found myself in tears trying to explain what was going on.

00:01:23:11 - 00:01:44:15
Tim Conrad
I had been part of the story from the beginning and needed it to end. This is an excerpt from the book When Accidents Happen. Managing Crisis Communications as a Family Liaison Officer by Moose Matlow. My guest in this episode, I'm your host, Tim Conrad. Welcome to the wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications podcast with search and Rescue family liaison officer and author Moose Matlow.

00:01:45:19 - 00:02:03:23
Moose Mutlow
Most thanks for being here and I know where you're coming from, the search and rescue world. And we haven't had anybody on the show yet from the search and rescue world. So can you tell me what Search and Rescue provides as an emergency service? Well, thanks for having me along on the podcast at such a rescue has various forms throughout the world.

00:02:03:23 - 00:02:29:06
Moose Mutlow
I'm sure with you global reach that be somebody who will say, oh yes, but it's like this in my country, in the United States, work with the search rescue group I'm involved with. It's a federal based operation. It's run through the National Park Service, and it responds to about 220 incidences, 70 National Park every year. It's a big difference from most search rescues throughout the United States that are staffed by volunteers.

00:02:29:06 - 00:03:00:18
Moose Mutlow
I'm actually paid when I go out on a mission for very specific ratings for different types of rescue, whereas most people just turn up with their gear and put in long hours without any financial renumeration. And we have we span the whole gamut as far as what we're responding to, whether it's, up on the walls, like vertical rescue and extraction to the ground search, swiftwater rescue and a lot of stuff that I'm actually involved with tends to favor more on missions that we're looking for someone or we're dealing with a fatality.

00:03:00:23 - 00:03:08:01
Moose Mutlow
You mentioned it's a mixture of volunteer and paid. It is mostly volunteer up here in Canada. What's it like down there in the United States?

00:03:08:01 - 00:03:25:06
Moose Mutlow
Majority. A majority of such a rescue groups are all volunteer. You'll find some that are multi jurisdictional. They'll span across agencies that allow you to do what's called add hire, which is an administrative rating that allows you to come in at certain cost per hour.

00:03:25:09 - 00:03:34:21
Moose Mutlow
And then a lot of it's run through sheriff departments or local police forces will have an ass as part of it will be search and rescue. They'll be somebody in charge you about.

00:03:34:21 - 00:03:45:06
Moose Mutlow
Okay, so you filled the role of the family liaison officer, and you've worked around 100 fatalities with search and rescue operations. Obviously, you've worked a number of successful operations as well.

00:03:45:06 - 00:03:49:17
Moose Mutlow
So tell us about your role and how you connect incident command to families.

00:03:49:17 - 00:04:08:09
Moose Mutlow
So the family liaison Officer acts as the representative for the incident command, interfacing with the affected family or group of friends during a mission, whether we're doing a search or recovery, you high up in that incident command system. The ICS see a privy to all the information flowing backwards and forwards alongside the.

00:04:08:09 - 00:04:32:17
Moose Mutlow
As the commander, you become something of an editor. You start to figure out what information can be passed on to the family at the right time, in the right manner. And you're taking families through that first stage of notification, hey, something's something's happening. It is something's gone wrong. And it could be a really good outcome where you say, we found a loved one, or I work all the way through when we do notification actions, the next steps when there's been a fatality.

00:04:32:17 - 00:04:42:20
Moose Mutlow
So this is a role that empathy is really important. And you've mentioned to me that you must be an empathetic communicator to be in this role. What is an empathetic communicator?

00:04:42:20 - 00:05:03:23
Moose Mutlow
I think for the lot of the work that I do, the empathetic part of it is the ability to take a step back and look at people who are hurting and in pain, a little bit confused, and recognize you're not actually putting yourself in that position, but you're putting yourself in a position of kindness and recognizing they're in crisis and you help them navigate a complicated landscape.

00:05:04:01 - 00:05:21:04
Moose Mutlow
And if you can back that up with a degree of technical knowledge. I come from climbing or swiftwater background, so I understand the ins and outs of working in those environments. You can give an informed presence for when they have difficult questions that might be, well, how are we going to do that? Extraction or how the helicopter gets involved.

00:05:21:09 - 00:05:41:18
Moose Mutlow
You have got to call in experts. And at that point, because you have the necessary information. But the big thing is to be kind and not take anything personally. People, when they're facing loss, have different ways of interacting. Some of them withdraw, some they get quite loud, some will get very distracted. There's no blueprint that says this is how you should be behaving.

00:05:41:19 - 00:06:04:05
Moose Mutlow
And that's what we as family liaison officers really encourage people to do is whatever they're feeling. Let it out. They don't have to say sorry. They don't have to excuse themselves with a buffer between is the command and the mission. So the mission doesn't get distracted. So we absorb that. That idea of empathetic or compassionate objectivity is a key to doing the job well.

00:06:04:05 - 00:06:26:11
Moose Mutlow
It's a key skill to have now, I think, and as a crisis communicator in most organizations dealing with an emergency, empathy is huge. It's where mental well-being is very much tested with everyone that's involved, but especially families and friends of the person that's missing. And so, you know, being there with them in those moments and guiding them through that is really important.

00:06:26:13 - 00:06:31:10
Moose Mutlow
I'm curious as to what tools and techniques you use when communicating with families.

00:06:31:10 - 00:06:47:03
Moose Mutlow
I listen a lot that a lot of it is taking notes and watching where people are going and recognizing that you don't have to fill space the whole time with the chatter or discussion about what's going on. It's being comfortable in silence and having a family run.

00:06:47:03 - 00:07:15:03
Moose Mutlow
That communication needs in a way, you respond to where they're at, and I think it's keeping it simple and digestible. If you see that look across their face where they get a bit confused, you need to back up and maybe change the way you're offering the information. If you're just talking at them, they don't necessarily absorb it. They might get an emotional reaction, but you have to back that up with a written note that helps remind them about the conversation they had an hour ago, or when they posed that impossible question.

00:07:15:07 - 00:07:36:08
Moose Mutlow
You give yourself the space to come back a bit later with maybe an area expert, subject matter expert to come in and address that pertinent point in a manner that they, they perhaps need a little bit more rounded information. The family liaison officer a lot of times the air traffic controller, the hearing staff, and they could do a certain amount of figuring out how to land.

00:07:36:13 - 00:07:57:12
Moose Mutlow
But the other two times you just have to turn around and know you haven't got the answers to everything. You have to have humility and know when they say when they say you. It might be an answer. It be it kind of shooting in the dark, a little bit. You need to back off and find somebody or the phrase you need to work on to make sure it lands in a way that they truly can digest it.

00:07:57:14 - 00:08:17:23
Moose Mutlow
I'm curious what families are like, when you're working with them through this, what's been the experience that you've had working one on one with families? And of course, you know, I want to want you to keep in mind, too, like while the search is happening, they may be getting information from other places through friends and family. And what does that what what's that impact on them?

00:08:17:23 - 00:08:47:18
Moose Mutlow
I don't think you could generalize a families interaction when a tragedy is struck. They run the full gamut, as I said, between quiet acceptance, loud disagreement, confusion, silence, withdrawing. It's it runs everything. One of the problems that we run a run up against is this myriad of information points. And pretty early on, I talked to families about the use of social media or starting to scan social media or local news for information, because we never want to be in a position where a family is caught flat footed.

00:08:47:23 - 00:09:12:03
Moose Mutlow
The idea of the family says, I don't know what's going on is is the thing we're striving to avoid. So we laugh, not to say ground rules, but guidance and we make regularly a timetable for when meeting early on an incident we might meet every couple of hours or even on the hour to start to pay, to pitch about what resources are on the ground or what the weather's doing.

00:09:12:03 - 00:09:31:05
Moose Mutlow
And as it goes deeper and deeper into days or multiple weeks, you start to spread those contacts out. But early on, it's about availability. You sit in a room on those first six hours, you might be in the room for 5.5 hours, not necessarily right up against some, but you're accessible and you're monitoring for what they might need.

00:09:31:10 - 00:09:47:23
Moose Mutlow
You protect you. It's a little bit of a prediction. You have to think about what do they need food? Do they need water? Do they need somewhere to stay? You're looking after those very low basic needs in order to make sure that when you come up with that meeting with the incident commander, that they're in a position to get the most out of it.

00:09:48:12 - 00:10:01:05
Unknown
Dee dee dee. He did it.

00:10:01:07 - 00:10:32:07
Unknown
He d d d d d d d d d d de de de de de de de de de de de de. Any day.

00:10:32:07 - 00:10:43:02
Moose Mutlow
So you're doing a lot of setting the stage of about the sounds of things and preparing them for what, you know, what information is going to be possibly coming at them in the next stage. Is that what I'm hearing?

00:10:43:02 - 00:10:52:19
Moose Mutlow
Choreography. When I'm training, I have a picture of a dance step and talk about a really good family liaison officer recognizes the breadth of what's available.

00:10:52:19 - 00:11:15:21
Moose Mutlow
Incident command can help paint a more complete picture for families and know when to bring those in. It is. It isn't. You flood the market really early on with maybe, maybe, maybe what you want to get in there with is facts, and you want to be in a position where they've got enough of a foundation that they can listen to something and go, oh, I need to take it up a step or two.

00:11:16:00 - 00:11:36:09
Moose Mutlow
If you're expected to be at a point where they fully understand a grid search with multiple helicopters and ground crews and dog teams, right, the get get, they probably they need to understand distance, how many hours out they are or how many hours. The timeline is something I roll out really early with them that actually starts to integrate them into what's happening.

00:11:36:09 - 00:11:57:21
Moose Mutlow
Like I'll say we contact you at 11:00. You got here at 1:00. Let's take a few steps back and know when that first call came in. Was at 730 last night. So we're talking about in excess of 16 hours to this point now. So they start to get that scale and physically paint her. You start to help them learn how they can get information.

00:11:58:00 - 00:12:13:18
Moose Mutlow
I think that's a really important piece to pull on. You had mentioned earlier about some kind of thing where you write things down. Can you give me a little bit more on that and what that looks like, and how you kind of take people through that writing down of what the status of things is

00:12:13:18 - 00:12:21:18
Moose Mutlow
so early on in a meeting, especially if we're doing a search and we're trying to figure out that, try to figure out the resources that are on the ground or in the air.

00:12:21:18 - 00:12:41:01
Moose Mutlow
When the dog tips are coming in, you can talk to them and then ask them 15 minutes later what happened and now have zero recollection. So I write a script out that I'll sit next to somebody and I'll show them the notes I'm going to talk through, and I will give physically give them that copy or date and sign it, and I'll take a photograph of it, because that's what I've given over.

00:12:41:05 - 00:12:56:19
Moose Mutlow
And I'll set and I'll come back to that my next meeting and say, hey, let's just do a quick reminder what we talked about an hour and a half ago when you look over that, is there anything that you start ask a question about something that wasn't clear and we go through it. So we reload all the facts as we know them.

00:12:56:19 - 00:13:15:15
Moose Mutlow
So now we're going to a second set of facts. They've started to hustle this together. It's not out of the blow. And that's the perfect thing that you go back a lot over notes. You go go back probably the day before. Say you don't say something. Oh you don't you remember that. You say, let's go back to the notes and see what was yesterday.

00:13:15:17 - 00:13:37:02
Moose Mutlow
And you empower them. At that point because then they have a script. So what on their on the phone talking to their family in another time zone about what's happening and that all the time builds to the family does know what's happening. I tell you there's a full on investigation. There's a hesitancy sometimes with law enforcement to fully divulge, hey, the scale and scope of what's happening.

00:13:37:08 - 00:13:52:12
Moose Mutlow
I think sometimes they hold that too tight and keep a family on an edge, which is unnecessary and hurtful. So I worked really hard with Lee to really lay out as much as we can without getting in the way of what what is an ongoing investigation?

00:13:52:12 - 00:14:08:19
Moose Mutlow
Yeah, absolutely. You know, just as you're saying this, the crazy thing that happened here, I'm in Kamloops and British Columbia, and there's a gentleman, 20 year old guy from Kamloops that was way up north here in British Columbia and went missing on October 7th in the mountains and was just found this week.

00:14:08:19 - 00:14:30:07
Moose Mutlow
Yeah. Saw this 50 days. He survived out there. It's been -25 Celsius and there's snow down in the in the mountains up there. And they found him and he's doing fine. He was released from hospital this morning. So an unusual case because of that search. You know, that that search had come to an end and they had not found him and they had moved on to the next stage.

00:14:30:10 - 00:14:39:18
Moose Mutlow
So I'm curious to hear what families that are in that period of search and a mission that as it moves to that next stage, what happens next at that point?

00:14:39:18 - 00:14:50:19
Moose Mutlow
That's about front loading the idea a very early on. I don't know how. So talk about hope. I say I have optimism, I'll look at somebody and say, I think that young man had a good background and outdoor skills.

00:14:50:19 - 00:15:07:11
Moose Mutlow
I think he was a hunter. I would talk about that with the family, say, oh, he has these, these, these not rudimentary. He has really good practice skills. So that gives us optimism that something has happened that maybe he can move around or he could he could seek shelter. He has some expertise to make a fire. That's why we're optimistic.

00:15:07:11 - 00:15:33:23
Moose Mutlow
And then as we've gone through multiple days, I start to get a bit more pragmatic and talk about reality. And it will say something like, if we don't find a significant flow in the next 24 hours, we're going to be having a different conversation at the end of that that day. And I'll say, what does that mean? We'll say we have to look at the reality of a time out where the resources on the ground and see how we can start to move forward if we don't have any close.

00:15:33:23 - 00:15:52:22
Moose Mutlow
And then often they'll say, are you giving up? And I say, no, we're not giving up. We just haven't found any clues to help guide us to figuring out where you left one S, and that's going to be our next step. It's a good flow. So I'm going to call this the command red or the ops chief and say this is the plan going forward in the next three days.

00:15:53:01 - 00:16:18:09
Moose Mutlow
It's hard because there you see it multiple times where families have a hard time not moving on, but letting go legitimately. But there's other operations running that pull in resources elsewhere. So you have to navigate this landscape of we have so much resources to all of them. But this other things happened and we're in that that gold now potentially to really make a difference over there.

00:16:18:09 - 00:16:38:00
Moose Mutlow
And we're getting diverted resources. And that is a very tricky thing to negotiate. I've had people say you are looking for that. My loved one, because they're from a culturally diverse group and you have to navigate that. So how do you navigate that? I brought in, a speaker of that person's language to sit down and have a conversation.

00:16:38:00 - 00:16:42:21
Moose Mutlow
So they were struggling in English to understand what was going on. And it's just facts.

00:16:42:21 - 00:16:56:08
Moose Mutlow
So I've worked many times a search and rescue as a firefighter and during large emergencies as well. They provide lots of roles here in Canada. And we've used search and rescue for going door to door to do evacuations, to directing people to the right, evacuation routes.

00:16:56:10 - 00:17:16:15
Moose Mutlow
And then I've also been involved with some when we've done everything from ice rescue to water rescue and even animal rescue. So all sorts of things. And they're just an incredibly valuable group. I absolutely love working a search and rescue every opportunity I get. And like many an emergency response, there's a difficult honesty that comes with the role that we've been talking about.

00:17:16:18 - 00:17:27:22
Moose Mutlow
Not all calls for help. And well, tell you what, the danger of hope and how those, you know, how have the responses and how do you prepare families for realistic outcomes.

00:17:27:22 - 00:17:36:15
Moose Mutlow
One of the things I never do is reference other incidents. When they say what's happened before, I say every instance different. We're teaching this sensor as a single episode.

00:17:36:21 - 00:17:58:06
Moose Mutlow
They inform us a little bit time of the year, right? But they're all so different that we refocus on here and now. And I talk through with families, with the terrain, the landscape, the amount of times hours we put out there to start to get them to the point where they're saying things potentially like, what happens if we don't find them?

00:17:58:08 - 00:18:28:02
Moose Mutlow
What happens if at the end of the week there have been no close? And then I'm I'm pragmatic and succinct and clear and say, well, the search will be suspended as we're not giving up, but it would be suspended. And we work really hard to distance operators and technicians from the family so that someone's motivated shout, which is we're going to find them, which is what they hold in their hearts and gets them out there every day isn't an empty promise to a family.

00:18:28:04 - 00:18:48:23
Moose Mutlow
That's the key point, is any commitment that we make, we're able to honor it in the moment and throughout the duration of the mission, and if you've if if you started from that honest point and you've been consistent, you have the best shot of having the family be able to process that, process that and actually understand that.

00:18:48:23 - 00:18:52:08
Moose Mutlow
Yeah, it's something I've often referred to as as hard truth.

00:18:52:08 - 00:19:00:05
Moose Mutlow
It's a hard truth to say. It's a hard truth to believe. But in the moments that you're in at that particular time, and it's important for you to hear that

00:19:00:05 - 00:19:10:03
Moose Mutlow
it's a fact. I think the, the, early on in, in most, in most incidents, you'll hear me say, I'm, I'm going to commit to you, to giving you facts.

00:19:10:03 - 00:19:28:22
Moose Mutlow
An undeniable truth and an undeniable truth is saying that I have vetted three times. So I've seen somebody who's been on scene. I talk to the helicopter crew, and the ex told me so that's an undeniable truth. And if I can, I get to an undeniable truth. I'm not going to commit to an answer. It's not. I'm choosing not to answer you.

00:19:28:22 - 00:19:41:11
Moose Mutlow
What I'm telling you is I haven't got that that depth of knowledge to be 110% sure. What I'm telling you is absolutely true. And we need to work in absolute truths right now.

00:19:41:11 - 00:19:49:21
Moose Mutlow
You know, I had in responding to wildfires last summer. I had instance instances where people wanted to hear something different than what I was telling them.

00:19:50:01 - 00:20:09:23
Moose Mutlow
And I said, I understand that you're where you're going, and I can understand where you want me to answer and what you want me to say, but I can't say that because that would not be a factual piece of information. I'm here to tell you the truth as to where we are at this moment, and it's the hard moment to have with people, but they really do appreciate it.

00:20:09:23 - 00:20:15:00
Moose Mutlow
Maybe not in the moment, but maybe later on. It sometimes takes a bit of time,

00:20:15:00 - 00:20:27:17
Moose Mutlow
and if they felt like if they felt they've been listened to, a big part of my job is to be a witness and to listen to this expansive question. It takes eight minutes to sort of get to the point of what the question is.

00:20:27:17 - 00:20:51:05
Moose Mutlow
And I'm taking notes and I say, let me just double check. What you're asking me is this, and I'll show them what my notice and I'll say, yeah, that's my question. I say, I'm going to answer for you right now, but I'm going to go back to first and commander, I'm going to come back here in two hours, with either, some facts, or it may be that we haven't got an answer at this time that we can give you.

00:20:51:07 - 00:21:00:18
Moose Mutlow
And I leave with my script to come back into, as I remind them, this is what they set me off on a mission to do. And if I have something to deliver them, I deliver it. Otherwise I say I haven't got an answer.

00:21:00:18 - 00:21:08:06
Moose Mutlow
The interesting thing about search and rescue is that you are in the emergency services and providing this, and it's quick to respond.

00:21:08:09 - 00:21:31:09
Moose Mutlow
The incident, though, generally stretches into a long event. It's days, weeks, sometimes even months. It's not like sometimes with a fire or a flood that's very immediate and happening right in front of you. This is a slow and methodical process as it happens. And so I really appreciate you taking us through and helping us understand that. You had mentioned earlier about the leading questions to guide people to answers as being quite effective.

00:21:31:14 - 00:21:44:10
Moose Mutlow
Can you take us through what that kind of process is? And, a bit of a step by step on how you really get people to how you lead people through those questions and how you lead them through the questions to ultimately find their own answer

00:21:44:10 - 00:21:59:10
Moose Mutlow
early on. I it's about building relationships. So it's hearing their story. You're on this accelerated path of intimacy because if you're looking for their loved one, they are going to just share the details which we need, which might be color their eyes their way, their level of physical fitness.

00:21:59:12 - 00:22:20:06
Moose Mutlow
They start sharing stories of share camping trips. So we have this great birthday party, and I use that as an opportunity to ask questions and start to understand who this person is, whether they were a fun person, how much resilience have they got? And a lot of times when we're talking about things is I ask, I remind them who we're looking for.

00:22:20:09 - 00:22:44:03
Moose Mutlow
So I say, Kenny, remind me again what he wrote about his outdoor experience. And as I start talking about this fun trap and, and with this camping thing, he fell in the river and he managed to dry himself out. And I said, oh, these are really good bits of information. So if he was out there in the storm, you think he's somebody could build a shelter or maybe make a fire and they start saying yes and all like, no, you go, why'd you say that?

00:22:44:03 - 00:23:07:08
Moose Mutlow
It's like they got a bit of a disability. This is a new bit of information. We have this information. So you basically just starting a conversation and what starts to evolve I found with not all groups, but a pretty high percentage is they start to realize the magnitude of what's involved. And then they start to almost self screen at what their questions might be.

00:23:07:10 - 00:23:29:10
Moose Mutlow
Especially in a group, you have somebody who will say something and somebody else to say, well actually yesterday we talked about this or let's get the map out and look at it. You, you just if you can get them in a conversation rather than just talking at them, then they feel like they're part of the team. And and that belonging is a really important place to be respectful in managing what their expectations and needs are.

00:23:29:12 - 00:23:51:00
Moose Mutlow
Absolutely. Is taking that time to listen and to guide people through those conversations is really it's really I found, very effective. And just to be there in that conversation with them both, helping them to understand the situation that that they're in and where they're at, but also helping that you're able to help them understand where you are at in the organization and what you are doing.

00:23:51:00 - 00:24:18:22
Moose Mutlow
And a lot of times you can complicate their lives by over asking. So we typically will say, let's have binary choices. Do you wanna eat something or do you wanna listen to what I'm going to say? It's as simple as that. John eight or your lesson, can we eat our lesson? Well, we've got to go. I get pizza, but like you're at that point, where are you simplifying that decision making complexities coming when they leave our jurisdiction?

00:24:18:22 - 00:24:32:15
Moose Mutlow
It's going to get complex because they're dealing with a body and a memorial, and all of these other things that are going on. So a lot of the conversation we have a very, very simple. And that's that's a critical part to having something that's digestible.

00:24:32:15 - 00:24:38:17
Moose Mutlow
Yeah, absolutely. I know you believe that families should never have to be in front of media during an event.

00:24:38:21 - 00:24:39:21
Moose Mutlow
Why is that?

00:24:39:21 - 00:25:02:15
Moose Mutlow
I think they have a choice. Then they you were you pretty early on or say, hey, this media interest or social media is picking up what you want to do and they can exercise that choice. We can help with that. But rarely in the missions that we work. Is is media necessarily a helpful adjunct because you're you already know where you're looking or you you've got enough people on the ground to respond.

00:25:02:15 - 00:25:38:14
Moose Mutlow
And news is sensational. Ultimately, it's about how bad the weather is or how big the odds, how how low the odds are. As far as like finding someone and families don't necessarily figure out that they're going to be on this pretty rocky road and it can turn fast. So I would never say to somebody, you can't do something, but but I'll bring a public information officer in and I'll say, hey, if you're going to talk to media, let's bring somebody in who can talk through the different media outlets and they can give you they can answer questions, and we can frame up for a location that you want to be when you're meeting them.

00:25:38:14 - 00:26:05:13
Moose Mutlow
And I would I would never participate in a media contact as a family liaison myself. But that's my role as in a position that needs to be quieter, needs to be out of out of you. In a way. Yeah, I the media, the media landscape has changed so radically. The and it is so cruel when it goes sideways that that is an added burden for a family to manage that I would suggest they don't need to do.

00:26:05:13 - 00:26:26:21
Moose Mutlow
Yeah. I have rarely worked events where the family has gone out in front of media. They're they've often initially wanted to and once, you know, they had some conversations with with them to tell them what that experience is like and what it could be like for them going forward, they often decide not to do it and to let us pass the message along on their behalf.

00:26:26:21 - 00:26:38:21
Moose Mutlow
So I do like keeping families away from media, and that's because I it can be something that adds a lot of stress to them. It doesn't really add a lot of value ultimately, in that moment, especially for search and rescue, I would think

00:26:38:21 - 00:26:47:20
Moose Mutlow
and a lot of times it's down to empowerment. The family feels incredibly disempowered when all of these people are doing the thing that they kind of want to be involved with.

00:26:47:20 - 00:27:13:22
Moose Mutlow
So when you say no to a family, we need to be aware of all that's kind of removing their ability to make some decisions. So it's always choices within a framework. And so if they chose to go down that I wouldn't have judgment on it and I would maybe change the way I'm being a family liaison in Britain, for instance, the family liaison officers, typically a commissioned, police officer who becomes the spokesman for the family out to media.

00:27:13:22 - 00:27:19:21
Moose Mutlow
So there are different cultural norms here. There's a they're different jurisdictions have different approaches.

00:27:22:05 - 00:27:42:05
Unknown
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00:27:42:10 - 00:28:03:20
Unknown
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00:28:04:01 - 00:28:26:03
Unknown
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00:28:26:06 - 00:28:37:11
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00:28:40:00 - 00:29:03:01
Moose Mutlow
Next up, I have a statement of yours that I want you to elaborate on. What is the idea of truth? Well, I think truth it right now, truth is a very interesting thing is so down to perspective. What it's always been about perspective. I, I work really hard to be we talked a little bit about undeniable facts, and I will prefer not to say anything unless I got anything to back it up.

00:29:03:05 - 00:29:36:19
Moose Mutlow
Even if I've got a pretty good idea. I won't say much. People want to believe what they want to believe, and if you give them too much room or they have a void of information, they start to populate that with their own perspective of what's actually happening. And so it's critical here to not have those voids develop and make sure you've given the family the tools to understand how they can start to fill that or know when it's going to get filled so that they don't go shopping around for shopping around for other things to fill up.

00:29:37:00 - 00:29:59:18
Moose Mutlow
Because often those things are malignant. The things that detract from the operation, they might be external appeal for resources that are unqualified, that flood the area, and you end up with dog teams that are not certified, or dive teams that carry no liability. And I've never dived altitude so of unqualified and as a monetary ization now of response.

00:29:59:18 - 00:30:21:03
Moose Mutlow
There are groups out there that turn up to look for flooded to for cars and rivers that are getting their YouTube dollars and they're having a good time and they're trying to do good work, but their motivation is a lifestyle. It's not the mission. And what we're trying to do is have credible responders and searchers doing technical work.

00:30:21:04 - 00:30:44:23
Moose Mutlow
That's collecting flows along the way. So we're not destroying evidence to help complete the story. And when there is an unresolved disappearance and it is years have gone by, I came again to imagine what that's like for a family. So that void has grown bigger and bigger because they're disconnected with command, because command's been taken apart, because they've moved on to other incidents.

00:30:44:23 - 00:31:04:22
Moose Mutlow
That's the place where the truth disappears really quickly, because then it becomes a thing, a fantasy, the idea of kidnaping or violent loss or something, something criminals come in to try and explain what was just a series of bad luck and maybe some bad decision making.

00:31:04:22 - 00:31:14:17
Moose Mutlow
Yeah, it is in British Columbia. Here we just like you, are in the mountains, so we tend to see lots of different search and rescues throughout the year, and they end up in different ways.

00:31:14:20 - 00:31:37:09
Moose Mutlow
That's one thing I can say that watching some of those that have not been gone so well, there's no end chapter for them at this stage and they're just unfortunately left dangling and they are just still listed as missing. We don't know what the end the story was for that person. And watching families I know kind of shift their truth over those years is really quite interesting.

00:31:37:11 - 00:31:55:01
Moose Mutlow
There's one particular case here just outside of Kamloops. Ryan Stuka and his mother wrote a book about that and her experience afterwards, because he has really vanished without a trace. And so just the whole experience that she's gone through, both during the initial response and then the years since, is really interesting in her book

00:31:55:01 - 00:32:03:23
Moose Mutlow
and unresolved. Unresolved is a very hard place to be.

00:32:04:01 - 00:32:34:19
Moose Mutlow
There's this idea of ambiguous loss which is linked more towards, acts of terrorism, where plane just is blown out, sky is not nothing is recovered or actually memory care with somebody has Alzheimer's or dementia where the partner sees the person they love, but they're a shell of of who they were because that, that that inside that spirit has disappeared and that ambiguous loss, I think is, is what people experience a lot with disappearance that is unresolved.

00:32:34:19 - 00:32:55:13
Moose Mutlow
And that leads to that disquiet and the idea of, well, what I find peace. And it's that is a very hard thing to be around. It's and to live it is again, so much further on than just being around it. And that's where compassion comes and, and kindness that that phone call every year that's on the person who's disappeared birthday.

00:32:55:18 - 00:33:17:02
Moose Mutlow
And it always comes into the station. And so we go, oh, they're phoning up again. It's five minutes to be to be kind. It's five minutes to be present and be a witness. And it's it pays off that that it that that respect helps that person. But it's also respect for ourselves to have less judgment of others who are hurting or have lost someone.

00:33:17:04 - 00:33:35:07
Moose Mutlow
I see a lot of judgment in SA on emergency services, where people with very little information say terrible things about the person who's disappeared and say, oh, what a terrible decision making. Or you know what we're thinking and we don't we don't actually don't need to think that we don't need to waste energy on it. We just we just need to be kind of

00:33:35:07 - 00:33:42:12
Moose Mutlow
yeah, kind of making some assumptions, some odd assumptions on things that don't, you know, on nothing really the on the idea of truth.

00:33:42:12 - 00:34:02:22
Moose Mutlow
So search and rescue often have many calls for service. And they often come in clumps and you'll get a bunch in a row. I know one of the local search and rescue teams here last year had, I think, three searches in one one weekend, and some could be extremely difficult searches due to weather, age of the person that's missing, or the circumstances with the person or the people are people that are missing.

00:34:02:22 - 00:34:08:06
Moose Mutlow
How do search and rescue responders know if they are mentally ready for the next call?

00:34:08:06 - 00:34:26:04
Moose Mutlow
Well, if you asked that question ten years ago, they didn't. There wasn't that much attention paid to mental health. It was is suck it up and get out there and do your job. And the way that manifested is some unhealthy behaviors with maybe drinking a bit too much, having terrible relationships, sitting indoors when you should be outdoors.

00:34:26:04 - 00:34:46:11
Moose Mutlow
Like having a good time. Now, there's been a lot more understanding of this impact, long term impact of stress, cumulative stress and the work of Laura McLeod with the responder lights is a rare example of where she adapted the stress continuum, which was a basically had a spectrum that was developed by the Marine Corps in the United States to combat readiness.

00:34:46:11 - 00:35:21:14
Moose Mutlow
So she adapted that to first responders. And it's amazing because it helps you identify where you're functioning, where you're already good position, and then where you might be having a little bit of an injury or actually having a serious injury, towards PTSD, where you need professional help. And we teach that now to responders and ski patrol and, place, officers to help them self-diagnose, not as a therapist or counselor, but to give P as a tool to go, oh, you're actually hurting a little bit right now.

00:35:21:18 - 00:35:39:09
Moose Mutlow
We need to set something up with professional care. And that's saved me. I had an incident a few years ago where I had got to the point where I tell this story that I was really hungry, and I went to the refrigerator and I opened up, and I had fantastic stuff to make sandwiches. I mean, it was unbelievable.

00:35:39:09 - 00:35:59:11
Moose Mutlow
It was organic, everything great, Brad, but it was so much that was going on. I just shut the refrigerator, went back and just got to bed and pulled the blankets over my head. And that inability to deal with complexity is an indicator of a high level of trauma, a high level of damage. And that was the key point in recognizing I needed help.

00:35:59:13 - 00:36:12:16
Moose Mutlow
And so I sort of evangelize a bit about the stress continuum, because I see its relevance, because it work for me doesn't work for everybody, but it has the diagnostic tool to put you back to a place where you have high functionality,

00:36:12:16 - 00:36:17:04
Moose Mutlow
and it's important to be ready. You talk about that. Years ago, you didn't even think about that.

00:36:17:04 - 00:36:36:05
Moose Mutlow
It made me think of a call that I was on as a firefighter, where a child we thought had fallen into some fast moving water. And I remember when the call came in, I worked at a spot where there was a couple firefighters there, and we ran over the door together, drove up to the station, and I remember driving up and thinking, this is a perfect day for this, because a week ago I was not in a spot for this kind of call.

00:36:36:07 - 00:36:51:23
Moose Mutlow
But I'm ready for this call today. I'm ready to go. And we had another not too long after that. For rescue of a similar thing in the water rescue. And I wasn't in that place, so I didn't go and, I just. Yeah, I just did not respond. So I wasn't in that initial response. So you have to be prepared to go in.

00:36:51:23 - 00:37:06:16
Moose Mutlow
And I it's not just the role that you'll be doing, it's the rest of life that you have to consider as well. What's going on in life. Are there stressful moments in your life right now that once you get out there and add some more stress to it, that they might not put you in a good position?

00:37:06:16 - 00:37:08:01
Moose Mutlow
What's fragility?

00:37:08:03 - 00:37:26:16
Moose Mutlow
We work. We work in an environment where that's that honesty that, for Jersey, is seen quite often as a negative and a failure to be, and was going to be gendered here, a man to be able to suck it up and actually sucking up just means that when you actually break, it's going to be a lot more dramatic.

00:37:26:18 - 00:37:54:19
Moose Mutlow
It's going to be a lot more. There's a fatalist attitude, element to it. There's a horrific statistic around people and in their lives who works in emergency services because this build up and never having that healthy relationship where they've been able to be honest and supported by a peer group because they've been belittled or ostracized, and I see a shift, it isn't there yet, but there's a shift to actually have a more open conversation about mental health.

00:37:54:23 - 00:38:00:22
Moose Mutlow
And it it it the sooner that happens, the better it is for all of us. Because people will live healthier, longer lives.

00:38:00:22 - 00:38:15:09
Moose Mutlow
Yeah, absolutely. Went you know, a lot of people that work, search and rescue will work in search and rescue for decades. Yeah. And there they built a lot of skill in that time. So it's really important to keep them healthy for those decades that they're working and keep them going.

00:38:15:09 - 00:38:33:12
Moose Mutlow
That skill is really important. I'm always amazed when I'm out there with the older folks that are on the crew and what their perspective is on a search and how things are going, because they will bring so much to the table, from what they've seen before and when they're in a good, healthy spot, it is, you know, when you're in a good, healthy spot is invaluable.

00:38:33:12 - 00:38:37:02
Moose Mutlow
What you get from those folks that are, have that experience behind them,

00:38:37:02 - 00:39:01:03
Moose Mutlow
and they have a responsibility to be practicing positive mental health. They can't model what was the 1970s. They have to model where we're at right now. And that's everything from language open, gender equality, all of these pieces we need to model as older people because if we don't, we lose that next generation coming up and I think that's underestimated.

00:39:01:03 - 00:39:13:15
Moose Mutlow
The sort of a mentorship internship piece that needs to happen is old dogs need to learn new tricks, is okay. It's not scary. Go for it. You'll be surprised how much happier you are. Yeah.

00:39:13:15 - 00:39:27:05
Moose Mutlow
Yeah, absolutely. I can only speak to the fire service, but when I joined, my second department that I was in, one of the coolest parts was, we had a lot of young members, come in that were ten, 15 younger, some 10 to 15 years younger than me.

00:39:27:10 - 00:39:39:03
Moose Mutlow
And, just what, what, they taught me as I came in, it was really cool, to have that back and forth between the two age groups and, really enjoyed it.

00:39:39:03 - 00:40:08:19
Unknown
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00:40:08:21 - 00:40:27:03
Unknown
If you could do me a favor and send this podcast to professors you know, so they could use this content in their classroom. I hope it will make our next generation a bit more prepared for what they will experience in the field. Wherever you listen, whether it's Spotify, iTunes, or Amazon Music. Please subscribe, leave a review and share with a friend

00:40:27:22 - 00:40:34:06
Moose Mutlow
Next up, I've got three questions for you. Are you ready for them? I am ready to go. All right, so one is first.

00:40:34:06 - 00:40:40:20
Moose Mutlow
One is one book documentary a resource that you recommend for those learning about crisis or emergency management

00:40:40:20 - 00:41:01:06
Moose Mutlow
or anything about Shackleton's expedition to Antarctica. It's it's a great text with lots of perspectives about good leadership and the idea that you can have a, a horror, multi-year ballooning and then lose nobody on your crew is a fantastic example of great adaptive leadership.

00:41:01:06 - 00:41:10:22
Moose Mutlow
Okay. Really good one. Excellent. So what advice would you give information officers or communicators managing crises or emergencies that would help them to do their job better?

00:41:10:22 - 00:41:31:06
Moose Mutlow
Take notes. Make sure you have a script. I mean like every every everybody's had it moment where they've said something and said, oh, I shouldn't have said that. And I so I think having something that's really hold you accountable when you're standing in front of a group of people or you're delivering it to a smaller group, make sure you have a script that has good notes on it.

00:41:31:06 - 00:41:47:19
Moose Mutlow
So you have good facts and you don't mess everything up. It's okay to have that level of organization. And as somebody who shot from their hips for many, many years, like I can wing it with the best of them. I know I am the poster child for making sure I have a good script going into a meeting.

00:41:47:19 - 00:41:53:22
Moose Mutlow
How do you maintain your mental well-being during the most intense response moments?

00:41:54:07 - 00:42:11:04
Moose Mutlow
I have a little phone tray when I go out on a on, so it's a bit challenging. I phone around to friends I have had for 20 or 30 years, wilderness guiding, or takes someone to say, hey, I'm going out on a mission, and they all know this, Paul. The people know that I'm out there and I'll start getting texts.

00:42:11:08 - 00:42:39:00
Moose Mutlow
So I have a lot of connection on that. I'm really honest with my feelings. I really rely on my my wife. So I'll come back and she'll be like, what happened? And she'll listen to it and doesn't have to ask too many questions. Just lets this narrative come out and then dig the pressuring decompression at the end of a list, giving yourself the room to start and have a bit of a dysfunctional, die healthy, healthy dysfunction.

00:42:39:00 - 00:43:05:07
Moose Mutlow
So everything like gets you to do any dishwashing that day. Or you eat a bunch of junk food, or you watch a lot of TV. It's it's this idea that you give your brain enough room to start to reset. I look at I look at a mission as a concussive event, like being hit in the head where with concussion you have to rest, you have to slow down, you have to take the intensity off.

00:43:05:07 - 00:43:20:07
Moose Mutlow
You need to basically allow the brain and the body to flick the switch to say you're safe. You not don't need to be hyper aroused. And when that comes along, it's a bit discombobulating and half the room to do that.

00:43:20:07 - 00:43:29:08
Moose Mutlow
All right. Thank you so much for joining me. Most. It's been, interesting to hear your perspectives on the role and the importance of strong communication with families during crisis.

00:43:29:10 - 00:43:50:17
Moose Mutlow
Thank you Tim. I really enjoyed it. You can get a copy of Moose Lowe's books on Amazon when Accidents Happen, managing Crisis Communications as a family liaison officer. And his other book, searching, which is Finding Purpose, Laughter, and Distraction through Search and Rescue. So thank you very much for joining me today. Moose on the wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications podcast.

00:43:50:17 - 00:44:09:03
Unknown
Thank you for listening and taking time to learn from our guests. Do you have suggestions for a guest or topic, or maybe some thoughts about one of our episodes? You can write to us a communication podcast.com where you can also leave a review. This concludes our episodes for season two, and we already have season three in development for the new year.

00:44:09:05 - 00:44:27:08
Unknown
I want to thank my guests and listeners who have been so supportive of the podcast, and we're patient as we learned how to become podcasters. As you take some time with friends and family over the holidays. Put the device down. Be in the moment. Take time to rest your body and your mind wherever you listen, whether it's Spotify, iTunes or Amazon Music.

00:44:27:09 - 00:44:49:20
Unknown
Please subscribe and share with a colleague or friend, such as someone in search and Rescue. Remember, we also have a newsletter that will give you more information and we put up transcripts, links and information from our podcast on our website at Communications podcast.com. If you like this episode, check out season one, episode four crisis on the ground. Public outreach and personal recovery with Lloyd Peel.

00:44:49:22 - 00:45:07:17
Unknown
Thank you for joining the wildfires, floods and Chaos Communications podcast. The production of Butterfly Effect Communications. We are masters of doom and gloom communication bringing calm to chaos. Enjoy the holidays and eat a bit extra off the sweet table and tell them Tim told you too if you're caught. Good bye. Hear me later.