Public Information Officer: Systems, Role, and Learning with author Doug Levy | The Communications Golden Hour® Book

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:37:21


00:00:37:21 - 00:00:57:22
Tim Conrad
Well. Hello, Doug. It's, great to have you joining me here. And, I'm going to jump right in and and talk about your books. Right off the go. So, you, put out the communications Golden hour book. This is the, first edition here. We'll show the size of it, because I think there's an important thing to show off here, and, you didn't update, so.

00:00:57:22 - 00:01:21:04
Tim Conrad
So this one came out in 2018, and then you did an update last year, and this one came out, and now we'll turn it sideways so people can see that they have a little bigger, got a little bigger, loaded with more content. And obviously, you've been busy. I've been staying in touch with you and, you're working on some unabridged versions as well.

00:01:21:06 - 00:01:26:12
Tim Conrad
So I'm curious, first off, what got you into writing on this topic? And, and we'll go from there.

00:01:26:17 - 00:02:00:03
Doug Levy
Well, for about ten years, I led communications at two different universities, one in San Francisco. And then I moved to New York and, particularly in New York, there was a crisis of some sort almost every week, including some big, some really big ones. And I was part of the emergency management team for the university, did a lot of coordination, cross training and so on with the police and fire departments and literally every potential response agency.

00:02:00:05 - 00:02:29:07
Doug Levy
And those trainings of course, came in handy because when real things happened, you know as well as anybody how important it is to already know who the other people and to have a plan in place. When I stepped back from that position, several of my colleagues said, you really should write a book, because even people who did like me said, if there's an emergency, we want Doug in the room for whatever reason.

00:02:29:07 - 00:02:56:04
Doug Levy
Maybe it was because I was a firefighter years ago. When things are going crazy, that's when I kind of just know what to do, at least as a communicator. Yeah. So I tried very hard to kind of follow that up and put it into some practical terms, mostly so that other people don't have to make the mistakes that I made as I was learning.

00:02:56:06 - 00:03:18:15
Tim Conrad
Yeah. And thanks for doing that. I mean, that's it's, you know, we've been, colleagues and back and forth for many years, chatting and, and, I've, I've really appreciated your, your insights. I was, you know, in touch with you before you came up with the, the first version. And, it, you know, you've done some great work.

00:03:18:16 - 00:03:37:21
Tim Conrad
This this book, I can tell you, goes with me to every disaster I go to. And it's it's there with me. It's it's getting kind of beat up now. It's been through a little bit of a little bit of a war, and, yeah, you've done some, some great work in, in compiling information, and, and, I'm thankful.

00:03:37:21 - 00:03:45:10
Tim Conrad
I also want to say thank you for including me in the latest version. So, you know, you find me, as a guest, contributor on this.

00:03:45:11 - 00:03:46:09
Doug Levy
Which I really appreciate.

00:03:46:09 - 00:03:47:12
Tim Conrad
Because you have.

00:03:47:12 - 00:04:04:00
Doug Levy
Been in some situations that are unlike the ones that most of us ever could confront. Yet many of the things that you've had to prove are absolutely applicable in other settings. Yeah.

00:04:04:05 - 00:04:25:15
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. It's, yeah, you can certainly take a lot of things from, you know, large and urgent emergencies and disasters and apply them to to other things that, you experience in crisis. So, yeah. So, as you're, working on these unabridged versions, tell us what a unabridged version is and, you know, a little bit more about what you're going to be.

00:04:25:15 - 00:04:29:01
Tim Conrad
What were we what people will be seeing in those unabridged. So these, when they come.

00:04:29:01 - 00:04:52:10
Doug Levy
Unabridged version is the one you're holding in your hand. That's 400 plus pages. The abridged versions are going to be much more like the other one. I've heard loud and clear that nobody wants to put the 400 page book in there. Go back. I certainly do. So, I'm I'm trying to parse it by sector. So it'll be much more like the first book.

00:04:52:10 - 00:05:17:04
Doug Levy
I'm happy to say the contents in the first book is still valid. What's changed is the case studies, and to some extent, the scale of the emergencies. We're also starting to see some changes to some of the tools that we use, as well as some of the media consumption habits. There needs to be some direct information on those things.

00:05:17:04 - 00:05:30:15
Doug Levy
So for example, if anybody purchased the book this year, since June, the chapter on AI is entirely different from what I included about AI in the book that you have in your hand.

00:05:30:17 - 00:05:31:03
Tim Conrad
But what I.

00:05:31:03 - 00:06:05:02
Doug Levy
Wrote six months ago about AI, it's already outdated, so I'm probably going to do a small book specifically about AI for strategic communications. Because that's incredibly important. Now, I'm almost finished with the public Safety abridged version, which is going to be, you know, all the same tactics, but it's going to be more specific to if you're a police chief, if you're a police Pio, if you're a fire department CIO.

00:06:05:04 - 00:06:37:19
Doug Levy
Here's the here's the things you need to do every time. And that's really the premise of the communications golden hour method. There's certain things. When I was at Columbia University, one of the things that I did that I'm really proud of is that I trained my team to think about emergencies based on scale, not specific. Is it a all hands on deck emergency or is it something small?

00:06:37:21 - 00:07:05:11
Doug Levy
How much is this going to interrupt routine operations? And by approaching an emergency response based on the scale of the emergency, not the nature of the emergency, you can call in the appropriate staff and then use the skills that you need to adapt to the specific circumstances. But there are some things that are going to have to happen no matter what the situation is.

00:07:05:13 - 00:07:21:07
Doug Levy
Somebody has got to have social media passwords. Somebody has to know how to craft the messages. Somebody has to know what the approval process is and so on. Those are all things that can be done ahead of time and makes a world of difference. Yeah.

00:07:21:09 - 00:07:55:13
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. Those things are, all things that I've been talking to a lot of people about over the last year, based upon my experiences in last summer's disasters here in British Columbia, we came up with some, came up against some really big walls with a lot of different things around processes and systems and, really slowed us down, like by days, in some case, just simply getting a YouTube video online because we couldn't get the password and get access and get that pass the authentication authentication that was there, because they didn't have a process in place to be able to trace it back.

00:07:55:13 - 00:07:56:12
Doug Levy
And that is a find.

00:07:56:12 - 00:07:59:21
Tim Conrad
Out very what was that was how did I start to get that.

00:07:59:21 - 00:08:30:01
Doug Levy
Right. And that's a very common situation. I have been brought in to multiple, organizations that have had a crisis, something they didn't plan for if they didn't have a plan. And the crisis is already underway, it's challenging to figure out those processes. And it's a it's a lot riskier. It's less likely to succeed. I'm happy to say that the last couple that I've been brought into, we were able to do it.

00:08:30:01 - 00:09:03:12
Doug Levy
But, you know, there was happened on Fridays and I, I'm actually vividly remembering two, two Friday phone calls this, this spring, from different organizations. Both had CEOs that were kind of freaking out because they had something potentially bad happening and were not prepared for the communications piece. And in both situations, the legal stuff was fine.

00:09:03:14 - 00:09:30:06
Doug Levy
They absolutely knew what to do. The problem is that lawyers are thinking about winning in court and sometimes winning in court does not mean keeping your customers, your constituents, the people you answer to happy. So, you know, we were scrambling to figure out, okay, who's in charge of the social media? Are there ads running for the organization you've PSA scheduled?

00:09:30:09 - 00:10:07:06
Doug Levy
Are there any events coming up where people might show up? This is the stuff that we have to be able to jump in and address very rapidly. You know, that's for an organizational emergency or a corporate emergency, but it's the same thing if it's, huge fire or violent crime, God forbid, or any of the things that could happen, you've got to have the basics locked down and planned so that nobody is questioning what to do or who's going to do it.

00:10:07:06 - 00:10:08:11
Doug Levy
Yeah.

00:10:08:13 - 00:10:26:18
Tim Conrad
And, you know, to go back to the title of your book, it's the Communications Golden Hour. And probably a little bit of a play upon a golden hour that used to be used in the fire service, which, in the fire service when you're doing an extrication. So that's when you're using Jaws of Life to get somebody out of a vehicle.

00:10:26:20 - 00:10:47:01
Tim Conrad
There's a thing called the Golden Hour. And, it's the idea is, is there's 20 minutes for, police, 20 minutes for ambulance, 20 minutes for fire. And you should have that patient out and off to the hospital. So when it comes to communications, though, getting a really strong start is is really important. And it sets the stage.

00:10:47:01 - 00:10:56:20
Tim Conrad
It sets the foundation. In my experience, as to how the rest of the crisis will go for you, that first hour is big. It's a very, very big one.

00:10:56:20 - 00:10:58:09
Doug Levy
And in fact, and.

00:10:58:10 - 00:11:02:18
Tim Conrad
So good. Good for you to to targeted on that I.

00:11:02:20 - 00:11:38:12
Doug Levy
I drew on my experience training as a firefighter, an EMT. I had the fortune of being trained in Maryland where the golden hour for emergency medical response was developed, literally. So all of our training was about having the right resources, responding so that whatever the situation, we could get those patients to the trauma center within that 60 minutes and we got to see the results.

00:11:38:12 - 00:12:13:03
Doug Levy
In fact, you know, at the time, we would see the outcomes of the patients that we extricated from car crashes and so on, versus other jurisdictions. And literally if you had the same injury in Maryland versus the same injury in the next jurisdiction, your odds of survival were dramatically different. And it's all about pre-planning for the known needs and not wasting any time.

00:12:13:08 - 00:12:25:14
Doug Levy
And we need to be doing that for communications the same way. The only other thing is that, you know, I think an hour was probably reasonable when I first wrote the book. It's now more like 20 minutes. Yeah.

00:12:25:15 - 00:12:41:23
Tim Conrad
Yeah. That's right. Exactly. So. So, while we, finish off chatting about the books here, I'm curious, what you learned with the first and second editions. Like what? What were some of the lessons you learned through the, the, the development of those books?

00:12:42:01 - 00:13:16:22
Doug Levy
I've evolved a fair amount myself. I, I've never been a fan of the thick binders that, you know, we sometimes see for communications plans and I, I mean, heck, I, I saw one communications plan that had a template, a preplan for some of the most far fetched scenarios imaginable. And I am sure that somebody, somewhere, probably years ago, had a lot of money for somebody or spent a lot of staff time to develop those.

00:13:17:00 - 00:13:42:21
Doug Levy
And, you know, those just collect dust. That's not particularly useful. So when I wrote the first book, I pretty much discount the value of templates. I do think you need to have a template. You know, you need to have a pre-planned message for that initial response. But beyond that, don't don't waste time doing templates. Focus on making sure that you've got the right skills and tools in place.

00:13:42:21 - 00:14:16:21
Doug Levy
And the people. Of course, I've come around. I now believe that, especially with some of the tools that we have to help us write faster and better, there are more opportunities to rewrite the predictable things. And if we follow the same principle of doing what is known, preparing for what you know is going to have to happen, why not have a preplan for if there's a report of a wildfire in a certain jurisdiction, have a fill in the blank sheet that you can just have ready?

00:14:16:23 - 00:14:18:03
Doug Levy
There is value to that.

00:14:18:03 - 00:14:37:23
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that's a I, I am a, a big believer in systems and processes and templates and guides and all those sorts of things being there. But they are a tool. They are not the the end solution for you. You're going to have to do something else to get them across the line and get them out to people and working for them.

00:14:37:23 - 00:14:41:17
Doug Levy
And that's really where the, the brainpower has to be put.

00:14:41:17 - 00:14:50:20
Tim Conrad
Yeah, exactly. So so what's the biggest gap that you've seen in, skills, style, knowledge? When you're meeting people through training and coaching.

00:14:50:20 - 00:15:38:04
Doug Levy
We've had so many huge emergencies in the last five years, including the pandemic. So we've seen many, many examples of both good and bad communication. Unfortunately, we've also had some really bad events in certain places with similar, similar really bad events in other places. So we've had some side by side comparison opportunities. And what really strikes me is the difference between a place that has anticipated that bad stuff happens versus the ones that really didn't know what to do, or didn't have anybody in charge, or maybe the authority was ambiguous.

00:15:38:08 - 00:16:12:10
Doug Levy
For example, there was a mass shooting in a in a retail facility, a retail store. I can't remember how many, how many, deaths there were, but it was a it was one of the bad ones. And it was more than three hours before there was any official communication. And when the authorities held their news conference, the first 12 minutes or so, at least many minutes, was thanking the governor and thanking the city council and so on.

00:16:12:10 - 00:16:41:14
Doug Levy
It was all this throat clearing stuff when people needed to know, are we okay? Is there somebody on the loose with a gun? Important things. We also have had some really outstanding examples, that we can learn from. I mean, the Uvalde, a Texas school shooting, you know, the police tactics, of course, were the most significant and horrifying, dismal failure.

00:16:41:16 - 00:17:11:06
Doug Levy
But the communications there also was a failure. And in fact, the very poor communications vastly amplified the pain for the families. We've heard that directly from them. And in fact, I was talking to one of the reporters who spent a lot of time there, ran into him at a conference about a week ago, and the tragedy already was as bad as it could be.

00:17:11:08 - 00:17:38:22
Doug Levy
But then to have misinformation coming directly from the authorities or in some cases, no communications from the people who were really in charge makes it worse. About a week later, there was a shooting in Illinois. Also terrible. I believe it was seven fatalities in that one. However, the multiple police departments that were responding had been training together. They all knew each other.

00:17:39:00 - 00:18:05:01
Doug Levy
The person who wound up being the Pio for that event wasn't even from that city's department. But he got the alert, hightailed it to the location of the emergency, and said, I'm here. And the local department didn't have their own Pio. So he became the Pio for that incident and did it so well. His message, his name is Chris Cavalli.

00:18:05:02 - 00:18:24:12
Doug Levy
You've got to focus on why you are communicating. What does the audience need to know. And in that situation, they had a gunman on the loose. People needed to know how to stay safe. Anything else was not important.

00:18:24:15 - 00:18:39:09
Tim Conrad
Yeah, right. And that's, so, you know, as we keep going, I you've worked a lot of these crisis communicators, training and coaching, leading them. What makes a great one? What makes somebody a great crisis communicator?

00:18:39:09 - 00:19:14:18
Doug Levy
Number one is understanding why you are communicating. I think that's where we see people go astray. I remember one, police executive that I worked with who was unable to really understand the audience. He could not get himself out of cop speak and was not very receptive to any suggestions from folks that actually know communications. And as a result, in in a few instances, he would be communicating about something that was truly good news.

00:19:14:20 - 00:19:41:11
Doug Levy
But because he was using jargon that the community didn't understand or he wasn't framing it in a way that was relevant to the community, it would either just pass over everybody's heads or I remember there was one case where the community actually thought he was communicating something that and it was a shame because his team should have gotten, you know, cheered for some really good work.

00:19:41:11 - 00:20:11:05
Doug Levy
They did, but it wasn't communicated well. And you have to know your audience. There's no way to get through to people if you have no understanding of what their frame of reference is. And that's that's a skill that requires some humility. And it also requires listening to people. And yeah, communications is not a one way activity. It has to be two ways.

00:20:11:07 - 00:20:16:11
Doug Levy
And an effective communicator really understands that. Yeah.

00:20:16:13 - 00:20:40:02
Tim Conrad
Yeah, I even, I'll throw in one thing that I've learned over the years is even how you address is a really important factor. And, yeah. So I'll give you an example. I, I worked with a person who, who came in and, they, they come from, a background in broadcasting, and they showed up and they were, you know, dressed very, very nicely.

00:20:40:04 - 00:21:02:22
Tim Conrad
And we were dealing with a disaster that was really ugly and nasty. And nobody was clean. Let's just put it that way. And nor were they dressed up in nice, clean clothes and nice, nice clothes, because a lot of them have lost their clothes. And, it was interesting going into the community and hearing how the community saw that person.

00:21:03:00 - 00:21:25:03
Tim Conrad
And they actually, like, brought them up in conversation and said that they did not trust that person because they were clearly out of touch with the community they were talking to. And that happened quite a few times with me and my team that were working on that one. And it was just I was really taken aback by how, strong people felt about that.

00:21:25:05 - 00:21:40:00
Tim Conrad
And that's not something I'd ever know. We've always felt that that exists, that you have to kind of match your audience in how you look. But I've never, had people walk up and say, who is that person? And how do we not have them here?

00:21:40:00 - 00:21:41:13
Doug Levy
I've, I've seen that.

00:21:41:15 - 00:21:43:19
Tim Conrad
And so that was like, pretty, pretty. Well, I've.

00:21:43:19 - 00:21:44:09
Doug Levy
Seen that.

00:21:44:11 - 00:21:48:20
Tim Conrad
To their experience because they were, they were good at their job. Well, they were really good at their job. You know.

00:21:48:20 - 00:21:57:18
Doug Levy
If, if the audience is going to be skeptical of your credibility based on how you're, how you look, that doesn't sound so good to me. I mean.

00:21:57:23 - 00:22:03:13
Tim Conrad
And I like that you came right back and took those words right out of my mouth. And you're right.

00:22:03:15 - 00:22:34:21
Doug Levy
I recall one of the, when I was in New York, the, New York City has 77 police precincts. It's a big city. There's 35,000 police officers across the, the five boroughs. And, the precinct commanders change every couple of years. It's a normal thing. And it often happens without much notice. And I remember one time when, a new precinct commander was coming into my local precinct, I was,

00:22:34:23 - 00:23:03:16
Doug Levy
Yeah, but I was a member of the community. Not had no official role. And I remember him walking into a community meeting for, you know, to be introduced for the first time. And he was wearing his class dress uniform. This was a neighborhood that was mostly not real well off. You know, a lot of people working 2 or 3 jobs, barely getting by, a lot of first generation immigrants, and even the people that had good jobs for, like, schoolteachers and stuff.

00:23:03:19 - 00:23:28:21
Doug Levy
You know, nobody dresses up like that for a community meeting. It was it was a power play. He was not trying to relate to the audience. He wasn't trying to connect to the audience. He was trying to be in charge, essentially. And it was such a dramatic contrast to his predecessor and also his successor, who both would show up to these meetings wearing their red jacket.

00:23:28:21 - 00:23:34:14
Doug Levy
I tell people to dress the way you would if you were actually responding to whatever the emergency is. Yeah.

00:23:34:15 - 00:23:59:04
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. And it's also though, like I want to point out something else that's happened up here. We had an incident in Canada this, this past year where, elected officials and some other people came in and then they put on firefighter's uniforms and went on camera y, and that got picked on quite heavily as well, because, you know, I remember people saying, what is this cosplay now?

00:23:59:04 - 00:24:29:20
Tim Conrad
Right? It's like every other idea. We had a Comic-Con and these people are dressing up pretending to be firefighters now. So they lost a ton of credibility when they did that. And, so it is, you know, it's finding that fine balance, in between you, you address to fit the setting. But don't overdress, as you've said, in a class A uniform or, in a spot like you, there is a time and a space for somebody to be an authority, but you have to be very sensitive as to when that time and space is.

00:24:29:22 - 00:24:50:13
Doug Levy
Absolutely. And the uniform has to make sense. If you're a hospital president and you're a doctor, if you're attending in the hospital, you're going to wear a white coat. Absolutely. But if you're a day to day job is sitting in an office, then you're not. You shouldn't be putting on a white coat to do in this country. Yeah.

00:24:50:15 - 00:25:01:03
Tim Conrad
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No. Excellent. So when we, when we jump to large emergencies and disasters, what makes somebody great in those events? Do you have any other thoughts?

00:25:01:05 - 00:25:30:09
Doug Levy
Experience helps a lot. You know, one of the things that, you know, I guess my gray hair or what hair I've got left, does pay some dividends because, I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of things that I've not seen, but there's a lot of stuff that is like something I've already been involved. And in some way, either as a journalist covering an event or on the consulting side.

00:25:30:11 - 00:26:08:00
Doug Levy
So if I'm able to say, you know, hey, this is how we handled it five years ago or in this other place, here's what we would do differently. That's always helpful. So experience absolutely helps. But I think more than anything else it's credibility. Are you somebody that is trusted within the organization and within the community, within and across the audiences that you've got to be communicating and trust and credibility don't happen overnight.

00:26:08:02 - 00:26:39:08
Doug Levy
So ideally, you're already familiar with the audience and they're already familiar with you, so that if you're competing for share a voice with others who may not be the real experts, they're going to trust you because I already know you. That's huge. And that also goes with being good at it. You know, I, I've worked with many, many, many leaders who are great communicators.

00:26:39:10 - 00:27:17:17
Doug Levy
I've worked with quite a few who are not as good as they ought to be or could be. One of the things that has impressed me about the ones who are the best is that the ones who are really good take the communications piece seriously and are willing to go through the practice and training. Some of the top executives in the world have media training or presentation coaching just on their calendar every month, just as a fixed thing, because there's always something they are presenting, and having somebody to give them feedback always makes them better.

00:27:17:19 - 00:27:27:19
Doug Levy
And also, I mean, you know, this even if we've been doing presentations on camera for 30 years, if you don't hear, it's going to look rough.

00:27:27:19 - 00:27:50:08
Tim Conrad
Absolutely right. And it yeah, great. I'm so glad you brought up the point of sitting down like some executives are sitting down once a month to go over and and make improvements. I had a cabinet minister a bunch of years ago that every single week, sat down with them on Friday and went over the week with how everything went.

00:27:50:09 - 00:28:14:18
Tim Conrad
And, and he it was amazing that he would take any feedback that I would give him. You know, I would break down, you know, how you were presenting himself, his, his visual appearance, his how he was saying words, all sorts of things. And it was really, a great experience for, for me, to, to go through that with him because he had been a politician for decades.

00:28:14:20 - 00:28:44:20
Tim Conrad
So and it's kind of showed me and he was very well respected and I was like, I now I now I get it because I worked I had prior to that, I worked with other cabinet ministers that were not at all that way. And they didn't improve. Often they were seen negatively by the public and, and, they saw a lot of challenges and they, they but yeah, this minister was just spectacular to, to work with and, and you know, so I think that's a really important is it is a skill you have to work on all the time.

00:28:44:20 - 00:28:51:14
Tim Conrad
It's something I work on all the time. And and I'm always looking for feedback from people as well.

00:28:51:14 - 00:29:15:02
Doug Levy
So I've learned a lot of different ways to give that feedback because as you said, not everybody is open to it. I had one executive who was rather resistant to that kind of feedback, but I my job is to give it. So I didn't stop, but I mostly framed it in terms of missed opportunities because his messages were very good.

00:29:15:03 - 00:29:52:08
Doug Levy
The visuals on his slides were very good. However, he was so accustomed to communicating with people that were experts in the field just like him, that he would put the emphasis on some of the secondary points so that a member of the general public probably wouldn't even hear the part that was relevant for them. And I, I mean, I finally got through to him by literally pulling some video clips of one of his big presentations and showing out and yeah, yeah, I wasn't saying it's like you did a lousy job.

00:29:52:08 - 00:30:05:14
Doug Levy
It was like, you know, this was a really important point. Look at where your eyes were as you delivered it, and think about how much more effective it would have been if you were looking straight at the audience instead.

00:30:05:14 - 00:30:27:22
Tim Conrad
Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, probably one of the biggest improvements, for my speech and, and improving how I'm talking. And hopefully I'll do okay today as I say this, but this podcast has been an incredible thing because when I put the podcast together, I have to watch myself and listen to myself and yeah, it's it's allowed me to to really ratchet up.

00:30:27:22 - 00:30:44:23
Tim Conrad
And I'm constantly picking out all those little things. And I know everybody hates watching themselves or hearing themselves, but it's worth it, to do it. You don't, you know, obviously you don't have to do it every single thing that you do. But, there's definitely opportunities for improvement. And you can always just watch a couple minutes here and there and, and get caught.

00:30:44:23 - 00:30:56:22
Doug Levy
That was something I was taught when I was a rookie radio reporter. At the end of every week, I would listen back to everything that I did and hopefully do better than next week.

00:30:57:00 - 00:31:13:23
Tim Conrad
The US, has just shifted back to Trump, who communicates in a chaotic style which will certainly impact how messages are created and received. What are your thoughts on how this will impact communications, and do you have any tips on how organizations can be seen through that chaos?

00:31:13:23 - 00:31:48:23
Doug Levy
I think the most important thing is for communicators now more than ever before, to make sure that their communications strategy is directly tied to the organization's business purposes. If you use that as your North Star and stay true to it, you're more likely to be okay and your business plans, your corporate goals, your government agency targets whatever organization you're in.

00:31:49:01 - 00:32:22:00
Doug Levy
You know, everybody's got an operating plan for the next quarter, the next year, and so on. If everything you do is consistent with those purposes, that's going to be relatively safe as things change from Washington or elsewhere. If you refer back to that purpose before doing a quick reaction, you're more likely to be okay. And that's also how to get through, because one of the most important things is to maintain credibility.

00:32:22:02 - 00:33:14:23
Doug Levy
And organizations or individuals who change their views frequently without some logical reason for it are harder to believe. That doesn't mean you should never change your mind about something, but you have to be able to show why and how what you're doing makes sense in the context of what your reason for existence is. I mean, for example, if you're an organization that, promotes free speech and all of a sudden you decide that you are going to be okay with legislation to restrict free speech because of political pressure or something else, you're going to destroy your credibility individually and as an organization.

00:33:15:05 - 00:33:25:10
Doug Levy
So we have to make sure that we don't do knee jerk reactions. We've got to be strategic with our communications, whether it's on the fly or planned far ahead.

00:33:25:10 - 00:33:44:02
Tim Conrad
Yeah, yeah. And I, I think I'll add to that, that I don't think that you can you can, respond to chaos with more chaos. I don't think it's a successful strategy to think that that's going to work. So you have to find a way to step out of the chaos and, and and find a solution there.

00:33:44:03 - 00:34:18:12
Tim Conrad
Yeah. So this is a tense and an unpredictable time. Citizens have very low trust in their governments and their institutions. There's conflicts between countries which are increasing, and some governments are interfering directly in elections in democratic countries. To build fear and division. This is, it's just like it's a stomach churning, toxic stew right now. And, what do we need to consider as we navigate our own crisis and how these external factors can impact how our audiences will receive and respond?

00:34:18:14 - 00:34:56:14
Doug Levy
This is a very challenging one. And I have had the benefit of talking to quite a few people who have been, for example, campaigning in areas where there are large numbers of Arab Americans or people with relatives and other troubled places. The most important thing is to as much as possible, understand that there are people who are grappling with a situation and feelings and emotions that we probably can't fully understand.

00:34:56:14 - 00:35:34:21
Doug Levy
You know, the enormity of what is happening in certain places, whether we agree with one side or the other, is less important than acknowledging those emotions and those feelings. I think one of the reasons we saw such loud and large protests in 2020, after the murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, was that there are there were many communities and many leaders at the time who were dismissing the claims that there was police brutality against unarmed African-American people.

00:35:34:23 - 00:36:20:02
Doug Levy
You don't have to agree with whether there are inappropriate examples of brutality against black men to be empathetic with the people who believe that. And that's something that's a great point. For some reason, I think there's some executive training along the way that that that tries to take that empathy out. And that's a huge mistake. When I was doing some work, as a community member with the New York City Police Department, the then chief of the department was doing really elaborate surveys to understand people's attitudes and a lot of other things.

00:36:20:02 - 00:36:47:10
Doug Levy
I mean, it was it was part of the crime fighting, effort. One of the things that came out from those surveys was that within certain places and certain demographic groups, no matter how good the police actually were or how low the crime was, the people did not trust the police. And I remember the chief telling the officers, I know you're doing good work every day.

00:36:47:12 - 00:37:13:11
Doug Levy
I know that you go out and you know, are taking care of the community. However, you need to understand that not everybody in the community sees that or believes that. So you can't just presume they all think you're heroes, even though I think you are understanding that that lack of trust is step one to building that trust back up.

00:37:13:11 - 00:37:32:21
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. And so globally, and especially in the United States, we're in the midst of large societal shifts, which are likely to become even more massive in the coming years. What should we know as we head into this period, which is loaded with conflicts, wealth, wealth disparity, culture battles and so much more?

00:37:32:22 - 00:38:04:10
Doug Levy
That's a loaded question. There's so many, so many layers to it. I think for communicators, what is really important to understand is the seismic shift in the media. We've talked for years about how the advent of social media has completely changed the roles of newspapers and the evening news. We're in a new iteration of the information age, and this year I saw some data.

00:38:04:12 - 00:38:42:10
Doug Levy
I saw some data earlier today that, quite frankly, surprised me that the, the median age of viewers of the major US news channels on cable TV is really old 60s and 70s. I did not realize that myself. Younger people are not watching the news. It doesn't mean they're not getting the news, but they're not watching, the programs that we thought were the way to get information out to people.

00:38:42:14 - 00:39:10:03
Doug Levy
And unfortunately, the way people are getting their information is through their social media feeds, which by definition, are tuned to give people things that are inflammatory and shocking and probably not real. So as communicators, we've got to figure out how to break through that. We've got to be more creative. We've got to be smarter. We've got to be better at listening.

00:39:10:04 - 00:39:43:12
Tim Conrad
Yeah we do. Yeah, absolutely. And it's and it's interesting that people have you know, I this just my observation they've left traditional media to go over to social because they found it very, very inflammatory and very, you know, they're, they're, they're building up and trying to create, I guess, their own form of chaos on television and, and wherever else they're broadcasting and putting news out, and they've shifted over to social media, which is actually they think is an improvement.

00:39:43:12 - 00:40:06:23
Tim Conrad
But it's actually, you know, you're just getting smaller bits of more chaos. And it's it's super fascinating. And that's something I found last year when I looked back on things that we experience during the wildfires. That's, that's that was our experience that we had. It was like, wow, they they don't like this chaos, but this chaos over here is worse, way crazier.

00:40:07:01 - 00:40:24:10
Tim Conrad
And they're going to that they're leaning into that, which is really quite interesting. But it came in in different both a different format but a different length of format as well. So but it is it's very much shifting. And I want to add another piece too. I have two older teenager teenagers in my house and I honestly don't know why.

00:40:24:10 - 00:40:44:07
Tim Conrad
Even though I watch the news all the time that they have ever sat and watched the broadcast from beginning to end. That's unusual to me because I can remember doing that many times as a kid. Because that's what you did at 6 p.m.. The news was on you watch. That's that's all you could watch. So it's it's definitely shifted, because we have devices in our pockets that can distract us in many ways.

00:40:44:07 - 00:41:27:07
Doug Levy
So it's also, unfortunately, at least in the US, it's a function of news literacy or the absence of news literacy. When I was in high school, we had to pass a class on government in English class. We had to read the newspaper sometimes and write essays based on things happening in the news. I don't know if those classes are still taught, but I know that some substantial portion of the American population is functionally unable to distinguish between the New York Times and some random blogger who may be making stuff up.

00:41:27:09 - 00:41:52:22
Doug Levy
We've even had members of Congress take stories from the parody site The Onion thinking they were real, and it would be funny if it wasn't true. Unless we fix that, we're going to be in deep trouble. Actually, yeah, we are in deep trouble because that has become such a problem. Facts. Yeah, absolutely not an exaggeration to say facts literally don't matter anymore.

00:41:53:02 - 00:42:20:00
Tim Conrad
No, they don't know. It's, very true. I've, Yeah. My, recent experiences show me that the the facts will be used as, as as a weapon. As much as they will be is as as a something. That's good. So it's, Yeah, it's really interesting time. So, there's really Palestine war, created further division, protests and attacks around the world.

00:42:20:02 - 00:42:41:15
Tim Conrad
We are starting to see similar battles forming around the wider conflict in the Middle East. The Russia, Ukraine war and conflicts on other continents. What advice would you give to those communicating in organizations which may experience, these conflicts coming to their communities or organizations, which is happening quite a bit these days.

00:42:41:17 - 00:43:13:19
Doug Levy
We certainly saw across college campuses, a lot of, different approaches. And sadly, quite a few examples where at least from afar, it looked as if the responses were not consistent with the organization's values. And I keep coming back to that values and purpose thing, because that really is important. You know, if you have a mission statement that just, you know, collects dust on the wall of every lobby, that's not going to help you.

00:43:13:21 - 00:43:44:03
Doug Levy
But if you have a very clear mission statement that is integrated into the way you do business, no matter what kind of organization you are, you're more likely to make good decisions. And if you're an organization that advocates for free speech, well, you need to be advocating for free speech regardless of what the free speech may be. Now, with that said, it's also appropriate to have some restrictions on workplace activity.

00:43:44:05 - 00:44:22:23
Doug Levy
Maybe, for example, you know, if you're, if you're a law enforcement agency, you probably can't tell your employees that they can't carry a flag supporting a particular cause when they're off duty and away from work. But if they have a very partizan flag or attached to their vehicle that is parked at the police station, that's a problem because somebody's coming to the station to do business, may feel as if that's a message of hostility towards them.

00:44:23:01 - 00:44:56:07
Doug Levy
So you're not infringing on the person's free speech. You're actually promoting free speech by making sure that your space is neutral. And that's very important. I had to work with some of my clients recently on, how to navigate, you know, potential partizanship and discord and discussion at the workplace leading up to the US election. One of the things that that the organization put together was a very good set of messages that said, you know, as an organization, we wholeheartedly support civic engagement.

00:44:56:07 - 00:45:24:02
Doug Levy
It's our duty, it's our responsibility, it's our opportunity. We know that we are all capable of having kind, open discussions with each other. However, please keep those discussions outside of the workplace because you don't know who else is around. And it it it's just not consistent with the work that we do. We encourage you to do it. But there's a time and a place.

00:45:24:03 - 00:45:55:14
Doug Levy
And that kind of instruction is helpful with regard to the specifics of of Gaza and Ukraine. We've seen many organizations do fundraising and that's tricky because, I mean, I think the reality is there was less debate over Ukraine. I mean, everybody that I know and every organization that I saw was horrified at what happened. So there was a lot of fundraising in support of people from Ukraine, with Israel and Gaza.

00:45:55:14 - 00:46:47:03
Doug Levy
It's unfortunately way more complicated and horribly tragic on so many levels. Understanding that it's not a clear one side right, one side wrong situation, it's much riskier to take a side. So generally, if you are going to do anything, you should do something that is balanced. So if you're going to give people information on how to support refugees from Gaza, you might want to come up with ways to support people in other places that can help or work with a relief organization that is neutral and works across borders, like the World Central Kitchen.

00:46:47:04 - 00:47:01:03
Doug Levy
People want to do something when something bad is happening elsewhere. And the extent to the extent that you can help channel that energy in a product of way, you might even bring people together, which is kind of a cool thing.

00:47:01:05 - 00:47:10:02
Tim Conrad
Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. It's a, it's a very fine line to balance these days. But I really appreciate your thoughts on that.

00:47:10:02 - 00:47:23:07
Tim Conrad
We know much of the population wants to know what organizations think of these conflicts as a way to demonstrate leadership, for those organizations. So what do organizations who have this expectation say when there is such division?

00:47:23:08 - 00:47:52:17
Doug Levy
One of the things that is really important is a recognition that it may appear that everybody agrees with one side, or that one side is morally or ethically right, and the other side is wrong. I don't know very many. I don't I'm not sure I know any situations that are truly light and dark that way. As a result.

00:47:52:19 - 00:48:46:23
Doug Levy
I think it's really important that we modify the way we think about conflicts and recognize that as an organization, our values may align with a certain position. However, we need to in most situations, make sure that we keep room for other points of view. I think when we saw the protests across many of the university campuses, one of the problems was that there was deep concern for the people who were killed on October 7th and the reaction when we, the Israeli army, attacked Gaza and killed many people there was not the same.

00:48:47:02 - 00:49:38:05
Doug Levy
There's obviously a lot to the differences in the actions. However, a death is a death. Grieving. When people die is appropriate. It is a human reaction. Even if you are only, you know, even if you are steadfast on one side or the other, acknowledging grief across the board is very important. For example, when I've written messages for organizations in situations like we're always very careful to acknowledge the emotions, the feelings, the suffering everywhere and help our audiences understand what we are doing about it.

00:49:38:05 - 00:50:12:11
Doug Levy
If there is something that we as an organization can or should do or if it's really beyond our scope, direct people where they can turn to get emotional support if they need it to give to charity or participate in activities in support of one side or the other, or optimally, organizations that are neutral and serving across borders.

00:50:12:13 - 00:50:50:13
Doug Levy
That's always helpful. Unless you're an arm of one of the participants in the conflict overseas, I've been such as a representative of one of the governments having some degree of neutrality, or at least empathy towards both sides is critically important. And again, going back to the universities there's nothing wrong. I mean I think it was a natural reaction to be horrified by what happened on October 7th, although many of us were equally horrified or more by what happened next.

00:50:50:14 - 00:51:28:00
Doug Levy
And you can't say all anti-Semitism is wrong. While allowing people to be campaigning against all Arabs, especially if you're an academic institution, because neither is technically correct. Campaigning against the slaughter of innocent people in Israel by Hamas is not the same as campaigning against all Arab Americans or any Arab Americans. Arab-Americans are not Hamas. The Israeli government is not American Jews.

00:51:28:02 - 00:51:28:19
Tim Conrad
Yeah.

00:51:28:21 - 00:51:56:12
Doug Levy
And of course, what makes things really complicated is that not not every American Jew support the Israeli government. Many of us have very strong feelings otherwise. But but making space for the multiple sides is an art that leaders must do. I mean, the definition of a leader is to help people be more than just what's in front of them.

00:51:56:14 - 00:51:57:07
Doug Levy
Yeah.

00:51:57:09 - 00:52:24:00
Tim Conrad
Yeah. Isn't that the truth? And and we're, you know, the we're upon Remembrance Day here in Canada and, and, you know, it does take me back to, you know, the stories of the war, both wars. I was fortunate enough that that that, and I know you are the that we were alive to hear first hand stories from World War one and World War Two.

00:52:24:00 - 00:52:55:03
Tim Conrad
Veterans and and I was always, surprised by the humanity that would sometimes appear in the middle of war amongst soldiers, soldiers who would, you know, celebrate holidays together, and go to help one another to collect their dead and injured. We've lost some of that humanity over these last, you know, 8000 years. And I do hope we'll see some of that come back.

00:52:55:03 - 00:53:06:01
Tim Conrad
So I like the ear approaches, you know, we can be empathetic towards the loss of life and then focus on that and not see, a good starting point.

00:53:06:03 - 00:53:31:14
Doug Levy
And honestly, that's an important starting point for communication in any bad situation. How many times have we seen a police chief stand up and talk about the bad guys? You know, we shot the bad guy or whatever? Well, it doesn't matter what the person did. That was somebody's son, somebody's father, somebody's brother, somebody's friend. This is it's not something to celebrate.

00:53:31:14 - 00:53:40:03
Doug Levy
And there's nothing wrong with expressing sympathy to the people who have lost a loved one. Yeah. No matter what the circumstances are.

00:53:40:05 - 00:54:04:15
Tim Conrad
Yeah. That's right. I've. Yeah. I mean, we certainly seen that, here in North America. It's a challenge that police are seeing when they're responding to some calls and, and they're dealing with a mental health crisis for someone. And then that person ends up dead at their hands. And I, I think if I could send a little message out to the police out there, it's like, I don't feel like there's enough empathy coming in those moments.

00:54:04:17 - 00:54:27:19
Tim Conrad
For that situation towards the people that have lost their lives and the families and friends of those people that, that were, you know, the victim in this situation. They're also, part of, you know, potentially causing a crime. Yes. Maybe, but it's, I think we can certainly give more empathy, and there's nothing wrong with that.

00:54:27:20 - 00:54:40:08
Tim Conrad
I don't think there's. Our world could use a heck of a lot more of it. So thanks for bringing that up. So we're in an era of misinformation and mistrust. How do we communicate with people that don't trust what we are saying?

00:54:40:09 - 00:55:09:10
Doug Levy
Step number one is to recognize that people don't trust us. And for those of us that have spent our whole careers attempting to communicate truthful information to help people live healthier, better lives and stay safe. That's pretty disturbing. But that's the reality. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean we get to change it. So understanding that we're in an era of mistrust is step one.

00:55:09:12 - 00:55:33:14
Doug Levy
Then we also need to look at how are people getting their information. Who do they trust? One of the things that was a bit of a shock to me when I fully accepted it, was the realization that when people are afraid, it doesn't matter how smart they are, facts don't matter. I had to communicate about the, Ebola outbreak.

00:55:33:15 - 00:56:17:16
Doug Levy
Gosh, was that ten years ago? Wow. And we had an Ebola case at the medical center I worked at. And one of the things that I was not fully prepared for was the most extreme, the most extreme, challenging communications activities that I had during that period were with people who were trained scientists. One of them, it didn't matter what scientific literature I gave her to show that there was literally zero risk to her or her children, given where they were and where the case was.

00:56:17:16 - 00:56:56:16
Doug Levy
I mean, they literally were miles apart. 30 years of science on how Ebola is transmitted meant nothing to this PhD scientist, because she was afraid. And I just thought, give her more science, more science, more science. Now that only made it worse. I put together a worksheet for, some clinicians a couple months ago where we were really looking at some of the ways to deal with messages in an era of mistrust and, I mean, these principles were developed for health communications, but they really work across the board.

00:56:56:21 - 00:57:27:08
Doug Levy
Thing number one is you've really got to understand who your audience is and what their environment. What's their point of view. Where do they get their information? Who do they trust. What are their immediate concerns. In many cases we go out to communicate about something thinking the most important thing is the long term recovery. When the folks on the ground might just want to know where do they get their milk and bread while the store is closed?

00:57:27:10 - 00:57:47:12
Doug Levy
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Practical stuff. You need to know what's on the mind of the people you're trying to communicate with. You also have to be crystal clear about why you are communicating and what is your main point. And you've got to reduce it to a single message. Yeah. We used to come up with like 2 or 3 different key messages.

00:57:47:14 - 00:58:22:13
Doug Levy
No, one point crystal clear. You need to make sure that it's bulletproof so that you've got to have facts to back it up, but you're not going to necessarily spew those facts as part of your messaging because the facts don't matter. Sprinkle the data in sometimes because it might help, but don't be too precise. So it's like, yeah, I feel comfortable using the vaccines because out of thousands of people who have used them, there have only been three adverse side effects.

00:58:22:14 - 00:59:03:20
Doug Levy
And they were treatable, minor, far, far less consequential than the disease we're trying to prevent. And make sure that you are reflecting and respecting the audience's point of view. So feedback to the audience something you've heard from them like I know that you're concerned about how many streets we have closed. We're working as quickly as possible to get traffic moving again, but we're only going to do that when we are certain that it is safe.

00:59:03:22 - 00:59:07:12
Doug Levy
And we appreciate your patience. Yeah.

00:59:07:14 - 00:59:33:02
Tim Conrad
Yeah. And that's, I use, kind of that technique. I, I built, I listen to the people and build my strategy from the people up and one of the things I do a lot is a mirror. What they're saying. And it's especially great when you're having those one on one conversations or with a group, small group of people.

00:59:33:02 - 00:59:48:16
Doug Levy
As long as you don't repeat a phrase or a word that connotes something that is inaccurate. Yeah. Because when you do that, you make it possible for your comment to be taken out of context.

00:59:48:18 - 01:00:15:21
Tim Conrad
That's right. Yeah. So yeah. And it's it's taking something that somebody says to you and reiterating back and then giving them some substance to that, some information that will help them to wrap their head around what, you know, what the the problem is and what the potential solution may be. So it's, it's a it is a, it's an art in those moments, especially in, in emergencies, in crisis, in disaster.

01:00:15:21 - 01:00:39:01
Tim Conrad
It's it's an art. And you, you have to be very cautious of how you do it. And it one of the things that has shifted, I've found quite a bit is when I first started this, 20 something years ago, you could have a conversation with someone, and the next day you might see a very different. That same person may be very different with you because their their mental health is very different.

01:00:39:02 - 01:01:05:02
Tim Conrad
And what's different today is they're shifting right in front of me, within ten minutes. And they're going through a lot of different things. And so the stress and the pressure is, is greater today. And, it's affecting people much different. So you have to be, very cautious at that moment to moment. So if you do try it, but certainly find people that are around you that are really good at that and, and learn from them.

01:01:05:03 - 01:01:34:15
Doug Levy
So everybody's job has gotten harder. And that's true on both sides of the equation in the audiences and among the responders, which is also why simplicity is critical. I mean, again, go back 5 or 10 years and we'd put together a briefing sheet that might have a ton of data because we thought people wanted it. And we think it's useful.

01:01:34:17 - 01:02:02:11
Doug Levy
But if people are alarmed, nervous and not trusting, you don't give them too much to work with. Yeah, this is why, you know, that single message is super important and don't overdo the facts, because citing the scientific studies is not going to get you very far. Even with scientists, as I learned firsthand with multiple I mean, that was the most egregious example.

01:02:02:11 - 01:02:46:13
Doug Levy
But I've had similar things happen with others and, you know, really choose your messaging carefully. The other thing, too, is it's very important to really understand how the folks on the other side of your communication are going to get your message. I've seen some unfortunately colossal failures. Where, you know, government agencies are wonderful about formatting and they might have a mandatory, you know, preface to every message that has you know, some kind of gobbledygook and the get out now part is cut off when people see the message on their phones.

01:02:46:16 - 01:03:15:15
Doug Levy
That's not helpful. The thing that you really need to understand the whole system, and we've also seen some other just colossal failures where, people responding to emergencies have not understood how their different tools work. If the utility poles have all burned down, you probably don't want to be using landlines to get emergency messages out. Yeah.

01:03:15:17 - 01:03:55:12
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's, Yeah, it's, something that I've experienced before where we're a community that was flooded, had no power, and they were trying to send electronic messages to them. It was, Yeah. So you have to you absolutely have to think about those things. And, you know, just to go back to my my earlier comment about mirroring, you had said in your comment just now of how to, you know, people are going to say it back to you, and, and, and that that's the other that's, it's a, it's another mirror and that's when it's the other thing that I've noticed is people are getting it then, but then they may process

01:03:55:12 - 01:04:07:02
Tim Conrad
it differently later and they'll come back and see me another day. And they've got a different perspective on that. So it's something to keep in mind that, this is happening out there and it's it's a shift that we've seen.

01:04:07:03 - 01:04:45:10
Doug Levy
So clinicians, when they're seeing a patient and conveying difficult information, will often provide the information and then ask their patient to tell them what they just heard. It's like, yeah, I want to make sure that I explained this clearly. Is can you just tell me what you understood from what we just discussed? You can't do that with a large audience, obviously, but that is a tactic when you're having a one on one conversation, on something important and detailed and you've got a receptive participant.

01:04:45:12 - 01:04:52:05
Tim Conrad
Yeah. And ultimately, if the stress level is high, the amount of information they can take in is very low.

01:04:52:07 - 01:04:53:02
Doug Levy
Absolutely.

01:04:53:04 - 01:04:56:11
Tim Conrad
So how can organizations improve their trust?

01:04:56:13 - 01:05:27:19
Doug Levy
Step one would be understand why the trust is missing sometimes just because of something your organization did. In many instances, it's because of something that some other organization did, or somebody else outside of your area. This is particularly visible in police departments. You know, the actions of a police officer in Minneapolis caused protests and outrage. Literally from coast to coast.

01:05:27:21 - 01:05:53:04
Doug Levy
So even though there's 18,000 different police departments, each one with its own sets of rules and so on. But, you know, because of that uniform, everybody is seen as part of the same. It's the same thing that a Starbucks barista who gets caught on video doing something really good or really bad impacts every Starbucks across the world. So really understand how you got into the deficit.

01:05:53:06 - 01:06:26:21
Doug Levy
And that includes understanding just the societal attitudes. Anybody who works for the government is seen as potentially untrustworthy these days. That's just the reality among a significant portion of the population, at least in the United States. Scientists are rejected automatically. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of ridiculous to me. Yeah, that instead of listening to somebody who's been studying something for 40 years, we're going to listen to somebody who just made something up on the internet.

01:06:26:21 - 01:06:53:17
Doug Levy
However, it's where we're at. So we can't just ignore that reality. And we have to meet people where they are. And that's going to take some learning, because many of us are not living on TikTok or Twitch or Telegram when we don't communicate in 15 second videos. But we have to.

01:06:53:19 - 01:07:20:12
Tim Conrad
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So this, takes us into the next question that really? Well, because it's the traditional media landscape is dramatically shifting and disintegrating, particularly here in North America. We've seen it here in Canada for about 20 years now. It's just been like this constant layoffs and, shut the shutting down of news agencies.

01:07:20:16 - 01:07:50:17
Tim Conrad
We've a lot of communities are starting to lose their local newspaper. So the long form news is, is no longer there. So even just getting the word out about community events, is, is getting difficult. And yeah, it's it's starting to have a really significant impact here in Canada and in our small communities, especially because we are, we are very spread out in Canada, and we have a lot of really small communities, across this country.

01:07:50:17 - 01:07:54:05
Tim Conrad
So I am curious to see what you've observed in the United States.

01:07:54:07 - 01:08:22:16
Doug Levy
Like most things, there's good and bad. We are in an era where everybody's a journalist. Journalism as a profession is no longer attracting people who want to make money because there's not nearly enough salaries in journalism have come way down. They were never right, but they've come way down. Employment for journalists has dropped dramatically. Yeah. Yet the number of journalists is up.

01:08:22:18 - 01:09:02:21
Doug Levy
If many of those people are individuals, in some cases, folks who left full time journalism jobs and are launching their own publications or just doing it as a side job out of community commitment, and with some of the biggest stories of the last couple of years have been broken by these individual bloggers, basically. And in fact, I can think of a couple of the the top political journalists in the United States now are folks who have left major newspapers or formerly major newspapers to set up their own publication and.

01:09:02:23 - 01:09:03:13
Tim Conrad
So it's.

01:09:03:15 - 01:09:35:02
Doug Levy
It's actually not a bad model. Some of those people are even making some money or at least getting by. So we've got a, dispersion of media that also matches the dispersion of population. So it's harder for folks like us because, you know, when I was growing up, I think two thirds of the United States adult population watched the same evening newscast.

01:09:35:03 - 01:09:56:00
Doug Levy
Yeah. You know, there were three networks. I think we had seven channels on TV. And, you know, if you wanted to make sure the world knew about something, you needed to get it in front of Walter Cronkite. We've come a very long way from that. And I was looking at some data this morning that shows it's come even farther than I had realized.

01:09:56:05 - 01:10:28:16
Doug Levy
The major cable TV networks, their audience has dropped significantly. And the age of their viewers is really high, even. I mean, and this isn't just one channel. I mean, all the major cable news channels have old audiences. That's a problem if you're trying to reach most people. So, and since 2020, it's just accelerated. Yeah, a lot more.

01:10:28:18 - 01:10:56:09
Doug Levy
A lot more people are getting information from Tick Tock. I don't entirely understand how their algorithm works, but because they're so short, people consume a lot in a very short amount of time. And podcasts also have very much, very much become the mainstream now. Yeah, more people are listening to podcasts than terrestrial radio. And it's, you know, it's no longer the secondary market.

01:10:56:14 - 01:11:31:16
Doug Levy
You have. So if we're trying to get messages out to the broader public, we not only need to understand that there is this bigger universe of journalism, but we have to really understand our audience and dig into them and find out which podcast, which influencers, who do they get their information from? And the good part is that in many communities, you have one or more local social media people who really do have a good audience.

01:11:31:18 - 01:11:43:22
Doug Levy
And most of these people are pretty civic minded people who get to know them. And they probably want to help you get information out to their audience. Yeah.

01:11:44:00 - 01:12:03:17
Tim Conrad
Yeah. That's so true. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, Yeah. You made a good point on to on just, the impact of how things have shifted. So, here I am in my community. I'm in here in Kamloops, British Columbia, and our news talk radio station just shut down and went to a different format, over these last couple of months.

01:12:03:19 - 01:12:32:16
Tim Conrad
Yet there are new podcasts popping up every day, in and around this region for different topics and, and so on. So it's, it's not that people aren't listening. It's, it's that they're listening somewhere else and listening to a different, different format. And, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a very dramatic, shift that we've seen and I'm sure we're going to see more of it, but I also to, I mean, you know, we're going to see where TikTok ends up landing, over these, next bunch of months.

01:12:32:18 - 01:12:54:19
Tim Conrad
It may not be a tool that's out there for people. So that will again shift things, to something else. We're not sure what, but, that the TikTok format is quite a it's a quite an interesting format. I learn a lot on there and, particularly loves the high speed button that they have. That you can get people to talk much faster and go through.

01:12:54:19 - 01:13:16:18
Tim Conrad
And it's, it's been, I've really quite enjoyed, how that platform can get information out to different audiences. So it there's, there's, it's a shift in some cases. It's a good shift. There's some bad things about TikTok, obviously, which is why it might disappear. But, yeah, I'm curious to see what ends up happening next.

01:13:16:20 - 01:13:54:08
Doug Levy
And, you know, the there's a federal law and some state laws that prohibit certain U.S government people from using Tik Tok. However, if a lot of people in our communities are getting information from TikTok, how do you ignore it? How do you not? I mean, I guess I can understand why people might not want the government folks to be using TikTok, but you have to be aware of it and you need to be aware of what's being communicated on there, because that's how information and misinformation, including disinformation, is spreading.

01:13:54:10 - 01:14:04:13
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. All right. We're up, to the end of the, podcast here. And I, have three quick questions for you. Are you ready, Doug.

01:14:04:14 - 01:14:07:10
Doug Levy
I fire away.

01:14:07:12 - 01:14:13:13
Tim Conrad
Good. What is one book, documentary, or resource that you recommend for those learning about crisis and emergency management?

01:14:13:13 - 01:14:32:01
Doug Levy
Well, that's an easy one. I'm going to say my book. I put everything I know into it. So I do recommend the Communications Golden Hour. It is a pretty good overview of what to do ahead of time, so that you know what to do when the alarm bells go off.

01:14:32:03 - 01:14:53:23
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. And and you've got two books. Let's just make sure the audience knows if you're watching on screen, you'll be able to see this one. This is the newest version, the Communications Golden Hour book, which you can pick up on Amazon and lots of other places. And then there's the smaller version from, 2018, also with the same name, but the first edition.

01:14:53:23 - 01:15:13:04
Tim Conrad
And I really recommend picking up both of them. Because they are they are different books. As you mentioned earlier in the interview, the smaller one is really good as a, hands on guide when you're in the thick of it. And I. That is why mine is it's got pages and has been beat to pieces. It's been through war with me.

01:15:13:04 - 01:15:37:23
Tim Conrad
So. Yeah. So, yeah. Great. Resources and can't recommend these to enough so thank you. And if you happen to follow our newsletter, every once in a while, I throw in a code for those people in Canada that they can get the, a lower price on the book delivered right to their door. So. All right, what advice, could you give information officers or communicators managing crisis or emergencies that would help them do their job.

01:15:37:23 - 01:16:16:18
Doug Levy
Better know your audiences. And that's a continuous job. The more that you are out and about understanding what's changing and who's moved in, who's moved out, who are people paying attention to? What are the kitchen table concerns in your community? Because anything you're communicating has to fit within the context of the audience. And in so many instances, your audiences situation is different from yours.

01:16:16:20 - 01:16:23:08
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. How do you maintain your mental well-being during the most intense response moments?

01:16:23:08 - 01:16:52:15
Doug Levy
One of the best skills that I've ever been taught is box breathing, which is it's a simple meditation practice. You don't have to call it meditation. But this is something taught in the military, in fire departments and many other places. And it's it's just a simple step. You know, you breathe into a count of four, hold it for a count of four, breathe out for a count of four.

01:16:52:17 - 01:17:25:05
Doug Levy
Do that a couple of times, get yourself grounded and then continue. And if you do that, when things are are rough, you stay grounded. It's so important. And it's it's during those moments of pause that you realize, oh, I need to make sure that my team gets a break. Or what about all the people that live in the senior center across town that we haven't been in touch with yet?

01:17:26:16 - 01:17:49:04
Tim Conrad
Yeah. Great piece of advice. Well, thank you very much, Doug, for joining me for an episode of wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications podcast. I've certainly always appreciated our conversations, especially when we can record and share them. So this is a treat for me to do this on my side of things. Doug, the work that you have put into creating all versions of the Communications Golden Hour book is important.

01:17:49:06 - 01:18:04:00
Tim Conrad
It's critical in moving the many forward in the work that we do in our roles. Today and in the future. So I really want to thank you for all of the work that you've done on these great books. And, thanks for very much for joining me today.

01:18:04:02 - 01:18:15:13
Doug Levy
It's been my pleasure. You've been a model for how to do big emergency communications, and I've had the honor of learning from you as well. So happy to be part of this.

01:18:15:15 - 01:18:26:07
Tim Conrad
Yeah, I really appreciate that, Doug. Thanks a lot. So for those listening, jump over to Communications podcast.com. Give us a review feedback or guest ideas. And of course share with friend.