How trust has shifted news consumption and how to adapt. With guest, author Doug Levy | Part 3 of 3 with The Communications Golden Hour® author

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:29:10
Tim Conrad
For whatever reason, the CDC communications about Covid during 2020 and 2021 was, at best, confusing. The reality is that when guidelines changed without adequate explanations, consumers were confused, then suspicious, then angry. I think many of us were caught by surprise that public health and medical care became partisan issues, with truth squads constantly pumping false information out to deny, attack and stigmatize even facts that were fully supported by legitimate research.

00:00:29:12 - 00:00:57:06
Tim Conrad
They proved that repeating and amplifying misinformation is an effective way to convince people that something is true, even if it isn't. Health care communicators have to watch this and learn how to compete better. Learn how to compete better. That is where Kathleen Leary Lewton nails it in the Communications Golden Hour book. If you want your information to win, it's now a competition, a battle over who can do it better.

00:00:57:08 - 00:01:06:08
Tim Conrad
I'm your host, Tim Conrad. Welcome to the wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications podcast with the third and final episode with my guest author, Doug Levy.

00:01:08:15 - 00:01:15:23
Tim Conrad
So we're in an era of misinformation and mistrust. How do we communicate with people that don't trust what we are saying?

00:01:16:00 - 00:01:45:01
Doug Levy
Step number one is to recognize that people don't trust us. And for those of us that have spent our whole careers attempting to communicate truthful information to help people live healthier, better lives and stay safe. That's pretty disturbing. But that's the reality. Just because we don't like it doesn't mean we get to change it. So understanding that we're in an era of mistrust is step one.

00:01:45:03 - 00:02:09:05
Doug Levy
Then we also need to look at how are people getting their information. Who do they trust? One of the things that was a bit of a shock to me when I fully accepted it, was the realization that when people are afraid, it doesn't matter how smart they are, facts don't matter. I had to communicate about the, Ebola outbreak.

00:02:09:06 - 00:02:53:07
Doug Levy
Gosh, was that ten years ago? Wow. And we had an Ebola case at the medical center I worked at. And one of the things that I was not fully prepared for was the most extreme, the most extreme, challenging communications activities that I had during that period were with people who were trained scientists. One of them, it didn't matter what scientific literature I gave her to show that there was literally zero risk to her or her children, given where they were and where the case was.

00:02:53:07 - 00:03:32:07
Doug Levy
I mean, they literally were miles apart. 30 years of science on how Ebola is transmitted meant nothing to this PhD scientist, because she was afraid. And I just thought, give her more science, more science, more science. Now that only made it worse. I put together a worksheet for, some clinicians a couple months ago where we were really looking at some of the ways to deal with messages in an era of mistrust and, I mean, these principles were developed for health communications, but they really work across the board.

00:03:32:12 - 00:04:02:23
Doug Levy
Thing number one is you've really got to understand who your audience is and what their environment. What's their point of view. Where do they get their information? Who do they trust. What are their immediate concerns. In many cases we go out to communicate about something thinking the most important thing is the long term recovery. When the folks on the ground might just want to know where do they get their milk and bread while the store is closed?

00:04:03:01 - 00:04:23:03
Doug Levy
Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Practical stuff. You need to know what's on the mind of the people you're trying to communicate with. You also have to be crystal clear about why you are communicating and what is your main point. And you've got to reduce it to a single message. Yeah. We used to come up with like 2 or 3 different key messages.

00:04:23:05 - 00:04:58:04
Doug Levy
No, one point crystal clear. You need to make sure that it's bulletproof so that you've got to have facts to back it up, but you're not going to necessarily spew those facts as part of your messaging because the facts don't matter. Sprinkle the data in sometimes because it might help, but don't be too precise. So it's like, yeah, I feel comfortable using the vaccines because out of thousands of people who have used them, there have only been three adverse side effects.

00:04:58:05 - 00:05:39:11
Doug Levy
And they were treatable, minor, far, far less consequential than the disease we're trying to prevent. And make sure that you are reflecting and respecting the audience's point of view. So feedback to the audience something you've heard from them like I know that you're concerned about how many streets we have closed. We're working as quickly as possible to get traffic moving again, but we're only going to do that when we are certain that it is safe.

00:05:39:13 - 00:05:43:03
Doug Levy
And we appreciate your patience. Yeah.

00:05:43:05 - 00:06:08:17
Tim Conrad
Yeah. And that's, I use, kind of that technique. I, I built, I listen to the people and build my strategy from the people up and one of the things I do a lot is a mirror. What they're saying. And it's especially great when you're having those one on one conversations or with a group, small group of people.

00:06:08:17 - 00:06:24:07
Doug Levy
As long as you don't repeat a phrase or a word that connotes something that is inaccurate. Yeah. Because when you do that, you make it possible for your comment to be taken out of context.

00:06:24:09 - 00:06:34:01
Tim Conrad
That's right. Yeah. So yeah. And it's it's taking something that somebody says to you and reiterating back and then giving them

00:06:34:01 - 00:06:49:07
Tim Conrad
some information that will help them to wrap their head around what, you know, what the the problem is and what the potential solution may be. So it's, it's a it is a, it's an art in those moments, especially in, in emergencies, in crisis, in disaster.

00:06:49:07 - 00:07:12:11
Tim Conrad
It's it's an art. And you, you have to be very cautious of how you do it. And it one of the things that has shifted, I've found quite a bit is when I first started this, 20 something years ago, you could have a conversation with someone, and the next day you might see a very different. That same person may be very different with you because their their mental health is very different.

00:07:12:12 - 00:07:38:12
Tim Conrad
And what's different today is they're shifting right in front of me, within ten minutes. And they're going through a lot of different things. And so the stress and the pressure is, is greater today. And, it's affecting people much different. So you have to be, very cautious at that moment to moment. So if you do try it, but certainly find people that are around you that are really good at that and, and learn from them.

00:07:38:13 - 00:08:08:01
Doug Levy
So everybody's job has gotten harder. And that's true on both sides of the equation in the audiences and among the responders, which is also why simplicity is critical. I mean, again, go back 5 or 10 years and we'd put together a briefing sheet that might have a ton of data because we thought people wanted it. And we think it's useful.

00:08:08:03 - 00:08:35:21
Doug Levy
But if people are alarmed, nervous and not trusting, you don't give them too much to work with. Yeah, this is why, you know, that single message is super important and don't overdo the facts, because citing the scientific studies is not going to get you very far. Even with scientists, as I learned firsthand with multiple I mean, that was the most egregious example.

00:08:35:21 - 00:09:19:23
Doug Levy
But I've had similar things happen with others and, you know, really choose your messaging carefully. The other thing, too, is it's very important to really understand how the folks on the other side of your communication are going to get your message. I've seen some unfortunately colossal failures. Where, you know, government agencies are wonderful about formatting and they might have a mandatory, you know, preface to every message that has you know, some kind of gobbledygook and the get out now part is cut off when people see the message on their phones.

00:09:20:02 - 00:09:47:20
Doug Levy
That's not helpful. The thing that you really need to understand the whole system, and we've also seen some other just colossal failures where, people responding to emergencies have not understood how their different tools work. If the utility poles have all burned down, you probably don't want to be using landlines to get emergency messages out.

00:09:50:01 - 00:09:59:15
Tim Conrad
Yeah, it's, something that I've experienced before where we're a community that was flooded, had no power, and they were trying to send electronic messages to them.

00:09:59:15 - 00:10:19:15
Tim Conrad
Did you know that monarch butterflies can fly up to 160km, or 100 miles in only one day? How do you measure if someone has experience in their field? Kind of like a butterfly. Have they sent evacuations by road, boat flight, canoe and trail? Well, I didn't send the one by canoe, but I worked with the person who did.

00:10:19:20 - 00:10:41:06
Tim Conrad
Do they need a team with experience with hurricanes, murders, sports, landslides, airlines? Financial crises? Pandemics, wildfires, fisheries, floods, destination marketing, ice jams, dental, health care or industrial incidents. We've got all those covered among our our associate team and most of them many times over. We can help you with public relations, public engagement or marketing. You may need including training.

00:10:41:11 - 00:11:03:13
Tim Conrad
We work with many organizations, including First Nations, governments, nonprofits, and business. We excel at the toughest work which has drawn us to disasters, emergencies, crises and issues. Yet we love to work on happier projects. So if you've got some of those, we're in on them too. We've organized large multiday events, led community outreach and public education programs, facilitated public participation and dignitary sessions.

00:11:03:16 - 00:11:14:21
Tim Conrad
You name it, we've kind of done it. Learn more about us at Butterfly Effect Communications, AKA where you can join our newsletter list now. Fly back to the wildfires, floods and Chaos Communications podcast.

00:11:16:07 - 00:11:38:23
Tim Conrad
just to go back to my my earlier comment about mirroring, you had said in your comment just now of how to, you know, people are going to say it back to you, and, and, and that that's the other that's, it's a, it's another mirror and that's when it's the other thing that I've noticed is people are getting it then, but then they may process

00:11:38:23 - 00:11:50:13
Tim Conrad
it differently later and they'll come back and see me another day. And they've got a different perspective on that. So it's something to keep in mind that, this is happening out there and it's it's a shift that we've seen.

00:11:50:14 - 00:12:28:21
Doug Levy
So clinicians, when they're seeing a patient and conveying difficult information, will often provide the information and then ask their patient to tell them what they just heard. It's like, yeah, I want to make sure that I explained this clearly. Is can you just tell me what you understood from what we just discussed? You can't do that with a large audience, obviously, but that is a tactic when you're having a one on one conversation, on something important and detailed and you've got a receptive participant.

00:12:28:23 - 00:12:35:16
Tim Conrad
Yeah. And ultimately, if the stress level is high, the amount of information they can take in is very low.

00:12:35:18 - 00:12:36:13
Doug Levy
Absolutely.

00:12:36:15 - 00:12:39:22
Tim Conrad
So how can organizations improve their trust?

00:12:40:00 - 00:13:11:06
Doug Levy
Step one would be understand why the trust is missing sometimes just because of something your organization did. In many instances, it's because of something that some other organization did, or somebody else outside of your area. This is particularly visible in police departments. You know, the actions of a police officer in Minneapolis caused protests and outrage. Literally from coast to coast.

00:13:11:08 - 00:13:36:15
Doug Levy
So even though there's 18,000 different police departments, each one with its own sets of rules and so on. But, you know, because of that uniform, everybody is seen as part of the same. It's the same thing that a Starbucks barista who gets caught on video doing something really good or really bad impacts every Starbucks across the world. So really understand how you got into the deficit.

00:13:36:17 - 00:14:10:08
Doug Levy
And that includes understanding just the societal attitudes. Anybody who works for the government is seen as potentially untrustworthy these days. That's just the reality among a significant portion of the population, at least in the United States. Scientists are rejected automatically. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of ridiculous to me. Yeah, that instead of listening to somebody who's been studying something for 40 years, we're going to listen to somebody who just made something up on the internet.

00:14:10:08 - 00:14:36:22
Doug Levy
However, it's where we're at. So we can't just ignore that reality. And we have to meet people where they are. And that's going to take some learning, because many of us are not living on TikTok or Twitch or Telegram when we don't communicate in 15 second videos. But we have to.

00:14:37:11 - 00:14:50:04
Unknown
Dee dee dee. He did it.

00:14:50:06 - 00:15:21:06
Unknown
He d d d d d d d d d d de de de de de de de de de de de de. Any day.

00:15:21:17 - 00:15:41:12
Tim Conrad
the traditional media landscape is dramatically shifting and disintegrating, particularly here in North America. We've seen it here in Canada for about 20 years now. It's just been like this constant layoffs and, shut the shutting down of news agencies.

00:15:41:16 - 00:16:11:17
Tim Conrad
We've a lot of communities are starting to lose their local newspaper. So the long form news is, is no longer there. So even just getting the word out about community events, is, is getting difficult. And yeah, it's it's starting to have a really significant impact here in Canada and in our small communities, especially because we are, we are very spread out in Canada, and we have a lot of really small communities, across this country.

00:16:11:17 - 00:16:15:05
Tim Conrad
So I am curious to see what you've observed in the United States.

00:16:15:07 - 00:16:43:16
Doug Levy
Like most things, there's good and bad. We are in an era where everybody's a journalist. Journalism as a profession is no longer attracting people who want to make money because there's not nearly enough salaries in journalism have come way down. They were never right, but they've come way down. Employment for journalists has dropped dramatically. Yeah. Yet the number of journalists is up.

00:16:43:18 - 00:17:23:21
Doug Levy
If many of those people are individuals, in some cases, folks who left full time journalism jobs and are launching their own publications or just doing it as a side job out of community commitment, and with some of the biggest stories of the last couple of years have been broken by these individual bloggers, basically. And in fact, I can think of a couple of the the top political journalists in the United States now are folks who have left major newspapers or formerly major newspapers to set up their own publication and.

00:17:23:23 - 00:17:24:13
Tim Conrad
So it's.

00:17:24:15 - 00:17:56:02
Doug Levy
It's actually not a bad model. Some of those people are even making some money or at least getting by. So we've got a, dispersion of media that also matches the dispersion of population. So it's harder for folks like us because, you know, when I was growing up, I think two thirds of the United States adult population watched the same evening newscast.

00:17:56:03 - 00:18:17:00
Doug Levy
Yeah. You know, there were three networks. I think we had seven channels on TV. And, you know, if you wanted to make sure the world knew about something, you needed to get it in front of Walter Cronkite. We've come a very long way from that. And I was looking at some data this morning that shows it's come even farther than I had realized.

00:18:17:05 - 00:18:49:16
Doug Levy
The major cable TV networks, their audience has dropped significantly. And the age of their viewers is really high, even. I mean, and this isn't just one channel. I mean, all the major cable news channels have old audiences. That's a problem if you're trying to reach most people. So, and since 2020, it's just accelerated. Yeah, a lot more.

00:18:49:18 - 00:19:17:09
Doug Levy
A lot more people are getting information from Tick Tock. I don't entirely understand how their algorithm works, but because they're so short, people consume a lot in a very short amount of time. And podcasts also have very much, very much become the mainstream now. Yeah, more people are listening to podcasts than terrestrial radio. And it's, you know, it's no longer the secondary market.

00:19:17:14 - 00:19:52:16
Doug Levy
You have. So if we're trying to get messages out to the broader public, we not only need to understand that there is this bigger universe of journalism, but we have to really understand our audience and dig into them and find out which podcast, which influencers, who do they get their information from? And the good part is that in many communities, you have one or more local social media people who really do have a good audience.

00:19:52:18 - 00:20:04:22
Doug Levy
And most of these people are pretty civic minded people who get to know them. And they probably want to help you get information out to their audience. Yeah.

00:20:05:00 - 00:20:24:17
Tim Conrad
Yeah. That's so true. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, Yeah. You made a good point on to on just, the impact of how things have shifted. So, here I am in my community. I'm in here in Kamloops, British Columbia, and our news talk radio station just shut down and went to a different format, over these last couple of months.

00:20:24:19 - 00:20:53:16
Tim Conrad
Yet there are new podcasts popping up every day, in and around this region for different topics and, and so on. So it's, it's not that people aren't listening. It's, it's that they're listening somewhere else and listening to a different, different format. And, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a very dramatic, shift that we've seen and I'm sure we're going to see more of it, but I also to, I mean, you know, we're going to see where TikTok ends up landing, over these, next bunch of months.

00:20:53:18 - 00:21:15:19
Tim Conrad
It may not be a tool that's out there for people. So that will again shift things, to something else. We're not sure what, but, that the TikTok format is quite a it's a quite an interesting format. I learn a lot on there and, particularly loves the high speed button that they have. That you can get people to talk much faster and go through.

00:21:15:19 - 00:21:37:18
Tim Conrad
And it's, it's been, I've really quite enjoyed, how that platform can get information out to different audiences. So it there's, there's, it's a shift in some cases. It's a good shift. There's some bad things about TikTok, obviously, which is why it might disappear. But, yeah, I'm curious to see what ends up happening next.

00:21:37:20 - 00:22:14:20
Doug Levy
And, you know, the there's a federal law and some state laws that prohibit certain U.S government people from using Tik Tok. However, if a lot of people in our communities are getting information from TikTok, how do you ignore it? How do you not? I mean, I guess I can understand why people might not want the government folks to be using TikTok, but you have to be aware of it and you need to be aware of what's being communicated on there, because that's how information and misinformation, including disinformation, is spreading.

00:22:15:15 - 00:22:19:04
Tim Conrad
When I started this podcast, this is one part that just really surprised me.

00:22:19:04 - 00:22:40:07
Tim Conrad
An audience from so many cities, towns and villages all around this beautiful marble we call home. Hello to our listeners in Singapore and to listeners in these communities. Manila, Philippines. Astoria, Oregon, Longueuil, Quebec. Jeddah, Saudi Arabia and Barcelona, Spain. Thank you for listening to our podcast. You join a global audience with listeners in over 30 countries and 300 cities.

00:22:40:12 - 00:22:52:07
Tim Conrad
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00:22:54:13 - 00:23:02:08
Tim Conrad
All right. We're up, to the end of the, podcast here. And I, have three quick questions for you. Are you ready, Doug.

00:23:02:09 - 00:23:05:01
Doug Levy
I fire away.

00:23:05:01 - 00:23:10:20
Tim Conrad
What is one book, documentary, or resource that you recommend for those learning about crisis and emergency management?

00:23:10:20 - 00:23:29:08
Doug Levy
Well, that's an easy one. I'm going to say my book. I put everything I know into it. So I do recommend the Communications Golden Hour. It is a pretty good overview of what to do ahead of time, so that you know what to do when the alarm bells go off.

00:23:29:10 - 00:23:51:06
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. And and you've got two books. Let's just make sure the audience knows if you're watching on screen, you'll be able to see this one. This is the newest version, the Communications Golden Hour book, which you can pick up on Amazon and lots of other places. And then there's the smaller version from, 2018, also with the same name, but the first edition.

00:23:51:06 - 00:24:10:11
Tim Conrad
And I really recommend picking up both of them. Because they are they are different books. As you mentioned earlier in the interview, the smaller one is really good as a, hands on guide when you're in the thick of it. And I. That is why mine is it's got pages and has been beat to pieces. It's been through war with me.

00:24:10:11 - 00:24:35:06
Tim Conrad
So. Yeah. So, yeah. Great. Resources and can't recommend these to enough so thank you. And if you happen to follow our newsletter, every once in a while, I throw in a code for those people in Canada that they can get the, a lower price on the book delivered right to their door. So. All right, what advice, could you give information officers or communicators managing crisis or emergencies that would help them do their job.

00:24:35:06 - 00:25:14:01
Doug Levy
Better know your audiences. And that's a continuous job. The more that you are out and about understanding what's changing and who's moved in, who's moved out, who are people paying attention to? What are the kitchen table concerns in your community? Because anything you're communicating has to fit within the context of the audience. And in so many instances, your audiences situation is different from yours.

00:25:14:03 - 00:25:20:15
Tim Conrad
Yeah, absolutely. How do you maintain your mental well-being during the most intense response moments?

00:25:20:15 - 00:25:49:22
Doug Levy
One of the best skills that I've ever been taught is box breathing, which is it's a simple meditation practice. You don't have to call it meditation. But this is something taught in the military, in fire departments and many other places. And it's it's just a simple step. You know, you breathe into a count of four, hold it for a count of four, breathe out for a count of four.

00:25:50:00 - 00:26:22:12
Doug Levy
Do that a couple of times, get yourself grounded and then continue. And if you do that, when things are are rough, you stay grounded. It's so important. And it's it's during those moments of pause that you realize, oh, I need to make sure that my team gets a break. Or what about all the people that live in the senior center across town that we haven't been in touch with yet?

00:26:23:23 - 00:26:46:11
Tim Conrad
Yeah. Great piece of advice. Well, thank you very much, Doug, for joining me for an episode of wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications podcast. I've certainly always appreciated our conversations, especially when we can record and share them. So this is a treat for me to do this on my side of things. Doug, the work that you have put into creating all versions of the Communications Golden Hour book is important.

00:26:46:13 - 00:27:01:07
Tim Conrad
It's critical in moving the many forward in the work that we do in our roles. Today and in the future. So I really want to thank you for all of the work that you've done on these great books. And, thanks for very much for joining me today.

00:27:01:09 - 00:27:12:20
Doug Levy
It's been my pleasure. You've been a model for how to do big emergency communications, and I've had the honor of learning from you as well. So happy to be part of this.

00:27:12:22 - 00:27:23:14
Tim Conrad
Yeah, I really appreciate that, Doug. Thanks a lot. So for those listening, jump over to Communications podcast.com. Give us a review feedback or guest ideas. And of course share with friend.

00:27:24:13 - 00:27:43:13
Tim Conrad
And that wraps up a three part series with Doug Leavy. So thank you very much for listening and taking the time to learn from our guests. Do you have suggestions for a guest or topic, or maybe some thoughts about one of our episodes? You can write to us at Communications podcast.com, where you can also leave a review wherever you listen, whether it's Spotify, iTunes or Amazon Music.

00:27:43:14 - 00:28:08:17
Tim Conrad
Please subscribe and share with a colleague or friend, such as someone in municipal government. Remember, we also have that newsletter and we put up more information, transcripts, links and information about our guests on our website at Communications podcast.com. If you like this episode, check out season two episode ten Avoiding Panic with Dorit Mason. Thank you for joining the wildfires, Floods and Chaos Communications podcast, a production of Butterfly Effect Communications.

00:28:08:19 - 00:28:15:11
Tim Conrad
We are masters of doom and gloom. Communications bringing calm to chaos. Goodbye. Hear me later.