Community-Driven Disaster Response: Lessons from Cariboo

Tim Conrad (00:07):

Not finance, not strategy, not technology. It is teamwork that remains the ultimate competitive advantage, both because it is so powerful and so rare. If you could get all of the people in an organization rowing in the same direction, you could dominate any industry in any market against any competition at any time. This quote from Patrick Leon Cone embodies the spirit of the emergency program at the Cariboo Regional District in British Columbia, Canada. The region is known for its rugged beauty sandwich between mountain ranges, where living off the land is the main source of life. For many ranchers, foresters, fishers and miners residents live in rural or remote settings, many with no access to land-based communications such as internet, cellular networks, or even radio. While it has experienced more than its fair share of disasters, it also has one of the best emergency programs I have seen in my decades doing this work. A big reason is Steph Masun, who until recently was the lead of the emergency program for several years. Her background includes public relations, program development, and community engagement. I'm your host, Tim Conrad. Welcome to the Wildfires Floods in Chaos Communications podcast with the second of two episodes with guest Steph Masun.

(01:26):

As incidents communities and economies change, the programs need to change with them. There's a continuous adaptation that happens there. So how do you staff frame policy fund and gain the support that you need to build an emergency program?

Stephanie Masun (01:40):

I think you have to think of it as you have to build something out that can succeed you. Meaning that when you're not there anymore, it needs to be able to have business continuity and it needs to be able to have the framework involved so that people working in it know how to act. They know what to do, they have to have the policy framework to give them the guidance so that there is forward action. And I think what that really needs is a solid policy framework. It's a solid business continuity plan. It's a solid retention concept and always having a second line and always having the plan to continuously improve and to look really critically at things. And I mean, not get too tied to that's just the way we've done it or we've done it this way and it's worked before. Because in the incidents that I've seen, yes, a flood is a flood is a flood, but it's not.

(02:43):

There might be a solution. And the learning and the listening to others, learning from others, being humble in that, being open to local knowledge, being open to finding channels to gain local knowledge and local perspectives and the learnings of other people, that the knowledge keepers and the long-term residents is ultimately important. And I think that sometimes we can get a little bit siloed. We can get very focused on our day to day. We have a very intense day to day of meetings, policy groups, board meetings, presentations, meetings, community meetings. And sometimes I think it can be a bit shocking to hear that you've got gaps where you think you didn't. But I think that it's really important to look at it with a continuous improvement lens and to understand that there's always a place where you can tie something in a little tighter and that you need your support of your board, your CAO, your other decision makers and your community.

Tim Conrad (04:01):

Absolutely. The work that you have done with that team on continuous improvement, it makes for a healthy environment too. I want to just add that as a consultant, when I get to come in and support you, however I do, it feels safe. I can come in as a consultant and consultants are kind of known for finding work. Yes. But it's like I'll find something. It's like while I'm here I can fix this, I can get this fixed up and almost always get, yep, that's good, let's do it or let's park it for later. And I think that culture is there and it's really cool as people have changed over in the roles that are there now, and it, it's just really neat to go in and observe that in motion. I go in kind of pretending like I've not been there a little bit before in some ways and just to see how the team functions. And it's been beautifully consistent over the years and I really commend you for creating that environment. And yeah, Irene now leading the program doing a wonderful job.

Stephanie Masun (05:15):

And I have to say I was welcomed in. I want to acknowledge that the CRD has a history of dealing with complex incidents and having a lot of also then complex relationships. And in some of those relationships there are tensions. And in some of those relationships there are unity. And at the end of the day, the program will succeed me and I put my aura in and I added my context. Other really strong leadership at the Cariboo regional district, including la pa, O, put their or in and left an environment that could to have success based on those early supports. And I want to, as I said earlier, make sure, give credit where credit is due. And I want to say all of the participants, every responding agency, the intentions of every sector and municipality, district and community in the region has really contributed to this because the communities have been supporting it. And without that community support and the community feedback and the interest of community and continuing to see this thing grow and improve and provide the service that people not just want but that they need before and after an incident and through recovery, it's been an incredible opportunity and a great journey and I'm happy to talk about it. I thank you for having me here today.

Tim Conrad (06:44):

Yeah, we get to have lots of personal chats about this, and so I'm really happy that you join me today and we have good ideas about emergency management programs. What do you think? You think we should be sharing them out there and getting them out there? Or do you think we should be, Hey, that's my idea. I want to hold onto that.

Stephanie Masun (07:05):

I think that the EM is built on sharing. It's an all hands on deck and how we communicate with each other, how we interact with each other. We all have our role. You are seeing more dialogue out there. I'm seeing ads and billboards saying there's an agency that says this is our job and this is yours. And I agree with that sentiment and I think we all have this part to play. And honestly, if it weren't for the sharing in em, I think we'd all be eons behind. I have benefited from the ideas and the synergies and a desire to share and looking back is how we look forward. That's the point of an after action review and it's documenting it and then you can share that out with others and you can learn from that. I think we need to continue to share, and I know that there have been some forums designed and fostered by some really great leaders in emergency management in this province.

(08:14):

I could start listing them and naming them, but I want to say every touchpoint I have, people have been very open. And I think that the people here have benefited from that. And I hope that people in other areas have benefited from our sharing as well. It's really a two-way street and I'm keen just to keep the sharing going. And I do have to say there's one or two players out there who put a lot of time and effort of their own into ensuring that other people have access to information, and I really am very thankful for them.

Tim Conrad (08:45):

Yeah, absolutely. Right. It's so important to be able to share and to be able to, an old boss of mine, Mike Kelly was his name, he used to say r and d, rip off and duplicate, and it's kind of the uglier version of saying it, but there's so much there that you can grab and turn it into yours to fit for your program to make it better for your people in your community. And we should be doing that. It's not a competition. Emergency doesn't care. Disasters don't care. Mother nature doesn't care if we're in a competition. She's winning every time. So

Stephanie Masun (09:29):

I know I've never come across that. I have not come across someone who or a situation, let's say, not individual people, but situations where there's been hesitancy to share information. And I don't mean working in contravention to freedom of information. I mean people are working within the rules but also within the rules. I mean there's frameworks that other people can build on. Exactly. And we're really lucky in this province to have such a strong emergency management association. The board of that group and the members of the group are constantly working together day to day on the phone, online emailing and really supporting one another. And I just wanted to say I'm really fortunate to be a member of that association because I can't say enough about how fantastic the environment was here and that I've been invited into and I can participate in my own

Tim Conrad (10:30):

Absolutely

Stephanie Masun (10:31):

Narrow spacey way.

Tim Conrad (10:32):

Yeah, and I

(10:33):

Mean I've seen it in the past. It was a bit more a thing that you would see in the past where people are holding on to things and holding onto their ideas. And I guess my piece of advice is that emergency programs that are built with the community to put the community and the person in the leadership role, we will put them on a pathic success. So if you build from community up, you're going to build a really good program and you'll look like an amazing leader by the time you are done building that program. And that's what you've done Steph there and it's come from the community app and you've always been so good at listening to those people that when you go out in the community, you see it every time wherever we are. We've been at little farm markets in the field, we've been at larger events in the city, and I get to see that in that interaction that you have with all members of the community. And that says a lot that there's that connection between the community members and you as an emergency program leader. So kudos to you for that.

(11:41):

Hey there, I have a special offer for you. Jump over to www.canadiantraining.ca and subscribe to our newsletter, receive discounts and early access to our new training platform, which will launch this fall. What's more valuable is we will send Canadian training.ca subscribers, free guides checklists and more that you can use in your homework or volunteer roles, Canadian training.ca, learning from mistakes. Someone should sign up now for those free resources. So to say that your EOC has been active is not giving the amazing team at the Cariboo region the proper credit. So we were active for 77 days in 2017, which I was part of in 2018. That was nearly matched except some floods, landslides and fires were included that year. Then from a string of incidents from 20 to 2024, there were more floods, more fires. And this past summer, the massive chill coat landslide, which was something that very rarely anybody deals with and what an incident that was.

(12:50):

And so there's been multiple seasons where you've reached nearly triple digits for days active, including last year, which you were, I remember talking to you at one point, we were both in EOCs at the time and talking to each other, feeding off of each other ideas and what challenges we were having and so on. And you had said to me, we've gone almost 100 days straight. And you had done more than that I think last year active, but there was a little bit of a break in between. So how do you keep it going along with everything else in government operations because the regional district still kept going and that's the other side of it. So how do you keep it all going?

Stephanie Masun (13:32):

You just I know that. Sorry, I was thinking of a cop out, but I mean this, the priorities, and as I said, it's, I think we are assisted with the preparedness messaging here based on, I mean, there's always something happening. Our emergency operation center is usually, it starts in February, March with the ICE jamming, and then there's fire, which seems to be starting now in March, April, and then we have fire season from March and April into September one year, I think it might've even been October. And throughout that period of time, yes, flooding can happen and landslides happen and spills happen, and it's a matter of figuring out how to manage the multiple task numbers. I've made good friends with my counterparts up in pre-op who help kiosk keep on track and support us and are in it with us. And I want to say there's always another agency involved.

(14:44):

We're not doing this alone. It's not a single agency response or mitigation or preparedness or recovery. It is a unified collaborative. Every agency has their role and responsibility, and as those come back together, you end up with those synergies. And that's part of what keeps you going is the cohort community. Community deserves and needs information. Community deserves and needs response. And as I said, I feel that the populations across the Cariboo Regional district have a lot of preparedness skill and they are ready. And so they are ready to get the message. They're ready for the information, and our job is to provide it to them and to keep it going. So I think we're motivated externally and internally and supported by the other agencies and people. The people have grown a lot of really good relationships, and I would say that's probably the basis of it all. Accountability.

Tim Conrad (15:52):

Yeah,

(15:53):

Absolutely. Yeah, it is. Especially, that's one thing I always get with you with our conversations is all of those relationships, all of those people that you are constantly reaching out to. You've mentioned a lot throughout the interview. If you were to give me one overall thing, or maybe it's a couple overall things, what do you say on the relationship side? Is there any advice that you could give anybody on that side of things to help them move along? I want to also give a little bit of background as to what some of the relationships are. So you mentioned preoc, the provincial regional emergency operation centers here in British Columbia, so that's where a lot of details go through and they financially support the regional district with certain things and so on. There's First Nations. The Cariboo Regional District is the most dense area in the country for First Nations in a single regional government area, 20 something, I can't remember what it is now. 26, 27 of them I believe. Something like that. So maybe it's more, but a lot of nations, which some, there's a lot of local governments in this country that don't have any First Nations within their geographic area. And you've developed a lot of really good relationships with First Nations, with the provincial folks, with volunteer organizations. Tell me what you would give for advice on their relationships side of things.

Stephanie Masun (17:39):

I think people appreciate the facts. I think people appreciate information they can use. I think people appreciate, so I'm going to segment it out a little bit between the different groups. I mean working within my role responsibilities solidifies my relationships with agencies I'm working with being honest and open about, Hey, I've got some pretty difficult things on my plate right now and I might be late to the table. I can say that to a counterpart. I don't say that to a community member. I say to a community member, here are the facts. This is what's happening. This is why it's happening. This is what I'm aware of, and here are some things that I think I see as challenges and I would recommend A, B, C, and D, but not send people down rabbit holes, people don't have time to be sent down rabbit holes.

(18:31):

What do we mean by that is to make a good referral to explain the details that somebody needs to make a decision so that person can act autonomously and trust, build the trust and understand that I'm going to give them useful information and factual information and tightly information to get back something as well as to get back some trust to give honesty and receive back trust, I think is a basis of relationship building. As a public servant, we're not friends, but we can build friendly relationships and accountability and honesty and just attending to it. I think everybody who works in emergency management will pick up the phone if it rings. It doesn't matter if it's 8:00 AM 10:00 PM 1:00 AM and especially when you've got an active emergency operation center. Your public information line might need to be open pretty darn late depending on what happened in the evening. And you might get someone who's really afraid. You might get somebody who's really angry. You might get someone who's really concerned about someone else and they need to connect. And I think offering that connection allows for a relationship building and that trust. And I think once you've established that the other messaging that you put out is credible, and as long as you continue to follow through, I think those relationships can also be sustainable.

Tim Conrad (20:15):

Yeah, absolutely. And I'll add to it, it's extremely important on the local government level. All of the measurement that I've done in all the years that we've been working together has shown that local government is the most trusted government and it's not even close. The provincial government usually is about half of what the regional government will get for support as far as being a trusted source of information. So you're very close to the people. You do have those relationships, you're in the community, they can see you in the grocery store. And so it is a very important role that you have there, and it's important to take that really seriously and build that trust with everyone. I think that's a part of the role that leaders in the government side of things that are doing emergency response and organizations that are doing emergency response, they have to build that relationship before the emergency.

(21:11):

I think it's really important to do as much as you can prior to that because once the emergency starts, you're kind of frozen in time and that's the best you're going to get. At that point. You might improve, but most of the time in disasters, emergencies, it declines usually because they're hard on people. So, so key to work on relationships all the time. So now you mentioned that you never know when the phone might ring. You've moved into a new role outside of emergencies, but I do have to point out, can you bring up the phone for a moment? You had told me you're on call tonight, still the bat phone, so she's in a new role, but the bat phone is there. I've had the bat phone before too because I've filled in the roles sometimes I've been, the Cariboo Regional District is the only emergency operation center. I can say that I've worn every vest, and I can even say finance because I just put it on for a second. The one day, just as we were closing down the E ooc and say, Hey, I'm in charge of finance, take that off. But you end up in lots of different roles. You are now in a new role doing intergovernmental affairs, just started this position. What I want to ask you though, what is it like to build up the team and step away?

Stephanie Masun (22:27):

It's exciting. It's really a very positive thing. Some of the people who are continuing on have been long-term staff at the Cariboo Regional District, and I've been in that EOC since before me, and they were the people who welcomed me in and they have shown up with heart and intention and energy and really helped set the tone. And I mean, the program manager is adept and skilled and knowledgeable, and the other team members are experienced as well and have a lot of really good intention and I'm really thrilled for them and I'm happy that they'll invite me in every now and then they make space for me. They are wanting to just continue to build on everything and they'll take it to new heights and I look forward to celebrating their successes and supporting them when I can.

Tim Conrad (23:37):

Yeah,

(23:38):

It's been really cool to see some of them, right? Some of them have been there. I worked with them in 2017. You were there and then just watching them come back in their role. Now they're going to be in, or they're in an emergency program role, which is great. I'm so happy for some of them to be there. But it's just a fantastic team and it's really neat to see how it's evolved and the different players, you're right, they keep showing up, and so I'm so happy that they now have something they recognize as that and they can work on it all the time.

(24:11):

Hello to our listeners in Ireland. We share a love of jigs and reels and to listeners in these cities, Brisbane, Australia, Midlothian, Virginia, Trobridge in England, St. Albert, Alberta, and Okinawa, Japan. Thank you for listening to our podcast. We have a global audience with listeners in over 30 countries and 300 cities. Wherever you listen, whether it's Spotify, iTunes, or Amazon Music, please subscribe and give us a review. Of course, please share with a friend by sending them communications podcast.com where you can also sign up for our newsletter. Well, we are at the end of our main part of our interview, and I have three quick questions, questions for you. I know already

Stephanie Masun (25:00):

That happened

Tim Conrad (25:02):

And this is good, folks. I want to tell you out there that the audience listening, be thankful that I didn't just call Steph up and just have a conversation. We'd be four or five hours sometimes we go on for quite a while and just really kind of unpacking a lot of things that we experience in the roles that we go through and kind of talking about solutions a lot. We really, really talk about a lot of solutions and it's always wonderful. So my first question for you though is what is one book, documentary or resource that you recommend for those learning about crisis or emergency management?

Stephanie Masun (25:40):

It's hard to pick one, Tim, if

Tim Conrad (25:44):

You've got a couple.

Stephanie Masun (25:45):

Well, I think I want to talk more about what are the resources as far as case studies. I wouldn't say one particular case study, and I think that case studies are a really good way for that. Tying in some of that information sharing, like you and I were talking about earlier in the discussion and understanding how things have been done and look at it in the context of your own municipality or community or regional district or what have you. Industry sector, and I also want to say courses. I think academics and any sort of learning opportunity as I would suggest, just keep doing those things and keep seeking out new information and ways information is changing and what's changing in the sector. So I don't have a specific thing, but I think it's the continuous learning and case studies and public administration for public safety, I think is an interesting thing to look at, to be frank. Yeah,

Tim Conrad (27:00):

And you've been my educator on that side of things. I hate reading about that stuff, so thank you so much.

Stephanie Masun (27:07):

I'm thrilled that there's Google Scholar now, and I don't necessarily need to pay lots of money to go to school, which I enjoy doing, but Google Scholar means that I can type some keywords in and see what's going on in research and how does that give me a little bit more of a context I didn't have before.

Tim Conrad (27:25):

Yeah, and it's great. Google Scholars neat. You can put in keywords and then have it send you alerts when there's new things up from other authors or topics. So what advice would you give information officers or communicators managing crisis or emergencies that would help them do their job better?

Stephanie Masun (27:43):

It's not something technical, it's not something program based is personal. I would say stay in your heart and when you're framing things, think what would my grandmother need to know? What would my grand need or want? What would my daughter need or want? What would my mother, what would my cousin, what would my coworker, what do I need to tell my coworkers is a big one? What have I not told people? What's in my head that I need to get out and how will that help people? I think for me, that's the basis. Every now and then I'll pop into the IO section and get on the public information phone, so to kind of hear what's happening and then I can kind of frame things from my heart and understand what would really help solve some of these issues and problems.

Tim Conrad (28:31):

Yeah,

Stephanie Masun (28:31):

Yeah,

Tim Conrad (28:32):

Absolutely. And I'll throw another bonus in there that if you think, what would make Grandma happy and what would help serve her well, she remembers, and when you go in the community, which I mentioned in the last season, you go in the community, grandma shows up with baked goods.

Stephanie Masun (28:46):

Yes.

Tim Conrad (28:48):

It's just an incredible thing that I really enjoyed. When I go out there and I still get baked goods when I go out in the Cariboo working, it's wonderful. I very rarely walk away without something in my hand. So wonderful.

Stephanie Masun (29:01):

I think the thing that's resonated with me is when I've been on that public information phone and when I'm talking to people, and as I said earlier, sharing the facts and sharing the useful information and explaining some things for a moment. I think people know when you care, people I know when you not just care about the job that you're doing, but you care about them and that you're trying to get to the bottom of what is causing this frustration or the fear or the distrust, and that comes from that connection and that relationship and it comes from your heart.

Tim Conrad (29:33):

Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing when you have that relationship. I talked about it last season. There's at your original district, EOC, you'll get calls from certain people that will call and check in on you, and it's just lovely. It's amazing. They just do it on the regular for you just to see how you're doing, and that's just amazing. So my last question is how do you maintain your mental wellbeing during the most intense response moments?

Stephanie Masun (30:04):

Go to the crying room. We laugh, but you know what? The reality is that I think allowing yourself to have a few moments of vulnerability in it, and honestly, really what it is, is it's your network. All those relationships we've been talking about with your counterparts, with your community, with the relationship I've been able to build with you. And that's why we have four to five hour conversations, and I have those, I've got a handful of people that are my support people, and in the midst of it all, I can call them and say, this is happening and this is happening and this is happening. And get a bit of a sounding board and a, yeah, you've got, this isn't really what we're doing, but we're problem solving some of the real tension points or even just the connection. When I talk about the crying room, I mean sometimes on the phone there's two people are talking about how tense they are and how intense it's been and how they just want to cry or have been. But it is that vulnerability and that safety and the relationship where you could admit that and know there's someone in your corner even during the most intense times,

(31:21):

And there's a real value in that.

Tim Conrad (31:24):

Yeah, there really is. So yeah, for those, I mentioned this as well last season, that folks would call me when they reach out, people I haven't heard from in a long time. And I want to really encourage people out there that when you know that you have a colleague or a friend that's in doing emergency response, check in on them. That means the world to them, even though they might not see the message for a while. It really, really does. And I rekindled old friendships in the middle of an emergency, all sorts of things. So yeah, it's a really important thing.

Stephanie Masun (32:01):

And if this didn't happen when I was working with the regional district, it happened before I got there, but there is a person who drove several hours to do just that, Tim, and this person is em, she's in another regional district, and I don't even know if she knows that. I know that she did this, but her doing that to drive down here to see our ESS director, to see the folks in the EOC and just say, Hey guys, we see you on our time, is invaluable. And it's exactly that. It creates the synergies for future relationships and it helps us all remember how to act. And I think there's more value in it than people realize. So yeah, that's exactly what I do is I reach out and I reach in.

Tim Conrad (32:53):

Perfect. Well, thank you so much for joining me for an episode of Wildfires, floods and Chaos Communications with a side of landslide. This time I tell many people across the country that the Cariboo Regional District has one of the best EOCs I have worked in, and it's also one of the calmest, despite the chaos that sometimes is happening around us, and you've built a program from a spot where it was tense to enter a room full of residents to one where they give us hugs when we arrive. So Steph, I'm so happy to finally have convinced you to join me for an episode. Working with you has been one of the greatest successes of my career, and we are always pushing each other while always being so supportive. So thank you very much for joining me. Really appreciate it.

Stephanie Masun (33:43):

Thank you, Tim. It's nice to be here.

Tim Conrad (33:55):

Thank you for listening. I really appreciate you taking the time to learn through our podcast. Do you have a suggestion for a guest or topic or maybe some feedback? You can write to us@communicationspodcast.com where you can also leave a review wherever you listen, whether it's Spotify, iTunes, or Amazon Music, please subscribe and share with a colleague or friend. Remember, we also have a newsletter that will give you more information including case studies and news from around the world, and we put up transcripts, links, and information about our guests on our website. Visit communications podcast.com. Thank you for joining the Wildfires Floods in Chaos Communications Podcast. If you liked this episode, check out season one, episode six, documenting the disaster with Michelle Toma. Goodbye. Hear me later.